Scylla:The cite unfortunately was unwilling to say something of this nature, and instead attempted to justify the position with falsehoods.
Actually, the cited article does say that
So the bottom line does seem to be “honey’s out because it’s an animal product, even though individual vegans’ ethical beliefs about beekeeping may vary.”
“Falsehoods”? That may be a bit strong: after all, even you the Benevolent Beekeeper say
Could well be, but I think from a vegan’s perspective, they are. As I understand it, it’s this whole concept of humans’ running the lives of other animals—making the decisions about who lives, who dies, who breeds, etc.—that vegans find repugnant. I think it’s more a case of a different attitude than of deliberately spreading falsehoods.
As anybody knows, the practice of raising sugarcane is devastating to the environment in which it is done.
True, but the article seems to be talking about organically grown sugarcane, which is less environmentally nasty, and in fact strongly recommends not using sweeteners at all. They may be overstretching the humanitarian issue, but I don’t think they’re really naive about the fact that plant agriculture involves environmental degradation and sometimes harm to animals.
And I took no issue with that. I took issue with the parts that were wrong or ignorant. Leave it at that and I’m fine. I really don’t care who eats honey.
Hold that thought for a second.
and I’m talking about different ways to keep bees. It can be brutal, or harmonious, or somewhere in between.
I am maintaining that even for those with the most delicate of sensiblilities it would not be difficult or terribly inneficient to keep bees without murdering them or injuring them at all.
The organic pacifistic method of beekeeping would be much more harmonious and beneficial than even the most sensitive organic growing of sugarcane.
In fact, I would argue that a compassionate beekeeping stance would produce far less ecological damage and animal fatalities than any other form of agriculture you care to name (even pure hydroponics will require bees to pollinate the crops,)
Plowing and cultivating and harvesting kills all kinds of critters. A careful beekeeper need kill nothing.
Anyway, her basic premise is about intent. As a beekeeper not only do I not intend harm, I intend and produce a beneficial impact.
And organically grown sugarcane is a new one to me. Is there really such a thing?
Scylla:I am maintaining that even for those with the most delicate of sensiblilities it would not be difficult or terribly inneficient to keep bees without murdering them or injuring them at all.
Including no requeening, no anti-swarming “larvicide”? Okay, but still, if your “sensibilities” include the belief that it’s the mere controlling of the bees’ lives by humans that is fundamentally unethical, you’re still not going to approve of it.
Anyway, her basic premise is about intent. As a beekeeper not only do I not intend harm, I intend and produce a beneficial impact.
I see what you’re saying; I’m just pointing out that if your basic belief is that humans should not be the boss of other animals, you’re not going to agree.
I also have to wonder: does your type of “organic pacifistic” beekeeping play a major role in commercial honey production? As I understand it, vegans avoid animal products (in addition to the basic should-humans-be-the-boss issue) not so much because they believe that the process necessarily harms the animals as because it usually does: they’re rejecting the unnecessary inhumanity of the typical industry practices. Is most honey really produced in the tender harmonious ways that you advocate, or are there some scary “deep-litter factory apiaries” churning out most of it?
And organically grown sugarcane is a new one to me. Is there really such a thing?
Oh, you betcha boss, there’s organic everything, just about. Check out what Guyana’s doing these days with organic no-pesticide legume-fertilized sustainably-harvested sugarcane projects.
Uh, Kimstu, do you have any idea the impact the typical modern legume crop has? And I’m including “organic.”
Sorry, I have no repsect for the vegan ideal. It seems to have sprung, like creationism, from a point of view, and then made an effort to fit everything into that point of view.
Naturally, I don’t get into this with my vegan friends…
I’d agree except that the honey bee is not the native host for the varroa mite. It jumped from another type of bee, I forget what, but is much more virulant in honey bees than its native host. With the possible exception of Africanized bees in South America, honey bees have not been able to adapt to the varroa mite.
There are some reports of a strain of bees called the Russian bee that has specifically been breed to have some resistance to the varroa, but I haven’t kept up to see if has really worked. There are other more serious breeding programs looking for natural resistance such as the New World Carniolian project at the University of Ohio, but at least so far they haven’t come up with anything against varroa mites. Trachial mites, yes, but not varroa.
Varroa kills every hive it infects unless treated. The USDA had a program for a while where they asked beekeepers to send in samples of any feral hives they found that might be resistent to varroa, but they didn’t find anything. The hives all turned out to be recent swarms. None had any natural resistance to varroa.
Fair enough - if the mite has another host that allows it to maintain population and coverage while the non-native bees are in decline, then I suppose this could result in extinction.