Beginner music question: Major scales

[Moe]

*Originally posted by EasyPhil *
**I don’t think there’s any misconception about what the bottom number means, it’s the type of note that gets one beat.

**

When the bottom number is 8 it is NOT necessarily the type of note that gets one beat. It would only be considered as such in 3/8 and more times than not in that case the 3 eighth notes still don’t really feel like beats to my ear but rather subdivisions of a 1/4. Still, a slow 3/8 could feel like 3 beats.
From this page: (after showing a 2 measure example in 6/8)

We therefore need to take the eighth notes and “condense” them to discover what the beat is. Condensing the three eighths down to one note gives us a dotted quarter. (1 8th plus 1 8th plus 1 8th equals 1 dotted quarter note.) In other words, the beat in a 6/8 bar of music is the dotted quarter. You can see that by going through the two bars of the excerpt, it is possible to apply dotted quarter note beats.

From here

Return the duration of the beat of the time signature. For example, the beat of 4/4 time is the crotchet, the same as its unit, but that of 6/8 is the dotted crotchet (there are only two beats in a 6/8 bar). The beat therefore depends on whether the signature indicates dotted or undotted time.

Another site

Usually, time signatures X/8 have a pulse (and are counted) in groups of three eighth notes.

**

What you have elaborated on is the notion of pulse. No all 4/4 music is counted or felt the way that you describe. In a lot of R&B music the strong beats are the 2 and the 4, where the snare drum hits are and where people clap their hands, or if they’re dancing it’s when their foot hits the ground. **

No! what they are clapping is the backbeat
URL=http://www.americandrumschool.com/backbeat.html]cite

Usually you have a snare drum beat that is directly below the X on counts 2 and 4. This is called a “BACKBEAT”

[Moe]

Labor, good post!

I often ignore 20th century music in such discussions for pedagogical reasons. It’s much easier to explain time signatures in terms of their traditional conventions to someone before speaking about the exceptions. And yes, today there are at least six hundred and one exceptions to every convention.

Time signatures are simply descriptive tools we use for the purposes of communication. Describe for me how you want the music to sound by any method that works, and I’ll play it for you.

[Moe]

*Originally posted by Labor *
**
Getting back to the OP with a slight hijack, I was a bit stunned earlier this year to see a book of scales fr guitar. I was amazed to learn that there were listed in this book 131 different kinds of scales. Of course I was familiar with major, natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, chromatic, diminished, whole tone and all eight of the modes. Now I need to learn only 117 other scales. This does not include the fact that each scale can be constructed on a different pitch. That would mean that I need to know over 1500 scales, ACK.

**

Hmmm… well… lessee. First off, don’t forget that the tonal minor scales (harmonic and melodic) also each have 8 modes.

Then there are the pentatonic scales. There are more than just the standard major and minor ones, but I don’t remember what they are exactly. Actually, they are probably just modes as well.

The “blues” scales (as they are typically called) are the minor pentatonic with an added b5, and the major with an added b3 (yes, both minor 3rd and major 3rd are present).

Then there are the jazzy “extra note” scales or “be-bop” scales (I’m not sure if there is any accepted nomenclature for them). These are simply major and minor scales with an additional chromatic note thrown in. (e.g. a major scale with an added b6th). These have the advantage of working out rhythmically to land on the tonic at the downbeat in common time.

Also in the same vein is the scale I’ve seen commonly referred to as the “be-bop minor” scale which is the melodic minor scale with an added b6th.

That should help cut that number (117) down a little bit at least.

[Labor]

Moe Thanks for the compliment and the hint on making those scales a bit easier to learn.

BTW if you need a great tubist for a gig let me know, I’m almost always available.

[Jpeg_Jones]

I realize that it’s a hijack, but for posterity, I’d like to elaborate on my comment to Moe.

*Originally posted by Moe *
First off, I never even mentioned 6/4. It happens to not only exist but be quite common.

Well, you did proclaim quite confidently that “If the subdivisions are duple the bottom number is 4 and if they are triple it’s 8.” I used 4/8 and 6/8 as examples because they violate your “rule”.

Your statement probably comes from your experience and I shouldn’t fault you for that. I was a little nasty and I apologize.

But it simply isn’t true that “the buttom number is determined by the way the beat is subdivided.” It may appear that way to someone who hasn’t seen a lot of uncommon time signatures, though.

Actually, it’s the top number that determines subdivision. The bottom number only determines the unit.

[1] If the top number is a power of two, each bar has that number of beats in it.

[2] If the top number is 3, it could be either one beat or three beats per bar.

[3] If the top number is divisible by 3 but not 3, then there will probably be x/3 beats in the measure.

[4] Any other number, such as 5 or 7 or 11 will probably be divided into various groups of 2 and 3 units (5 could be 3+2 or 2+3).

To summarize my point: The bottom number only tells you what the units are. You cannot make any assumption about duple or triple simply from the bottom number. In general, most music looks like it’s following a rule like you describe, but the issue of duple or triple is determined (I should say suggested) only by the numerator, not the denominator.