Most of the time. But why on earth would anyone inflict psychological damage on their children in the first place ?
Oh, I forgot - to instill them with “social standards and morals”. You obviously see things differently, but I’ll happily admit that on my moral compass, raising your kids without resorting to abuse of any sort is a rather basic demand - I would hold anyone claiming to be a morally guided person to a much higher standard than that.
As for the hilarious children/puppy analogy, I can’t really decide what to post: That you can raise puppies without paddling them (which is quite true) or - perhaps more to the point - that children are not puppies ?
Charming. If you drive someone to suicide, it’s for the better because it improves the breed. What was the name of that philosophy that taught that the weak have no right to live ?
It seems to me that what you’re advocating is bullying, not parenting.
And another thing… the guy who runs TB is named Jay Kay. Now every time I hear “Virtual Insanity”, I’m going to be thinking of brainwashed kids.
Not just recruiting in the U.S., but Wwasp (World Wide Association of Speciality Programs), the organization that runs Tranquility Bay and other facilities, is apparently based in Utah. Draw your own conclusions.
Physical force always has to be a last resort when dealing with people, and imho there are cases where it’s better to force a child to obey than to let him grow up immoral and constantly in jail. I just hope these can be a bare minimum. That said:
There people are inhuman! Read the article. If the organisers are sent to jail they will be better off than these kidsin almost all ways!
Crap on a cracker! Tell me I’m being whooshed here! Do you really think one is made a moral and upstanding citizen by fearing punishment?
Morality is the ability to choose right from wrong based on a free decision not by threat of punishment! I have two boys, They are a year apart and both under the 8 year old limit you somehow magically came up with as the moment of consciousness. I am teaching them to make moral decisions not by beating them or threatening to do so but by explaining things to them. Yes Children have little sense of empathy but that can be taught.
I want to raise thinking human beings not automatons or (in your example) puppies. I think you sadly underestimate what a child is capable of learning in the early years. Christ in their first two years they learn motor skills and an entire language from point zero!
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And where does this horse shit emanate from? I mean where do these assertions come from? What studies do you base this on? How about a Cite? Does this Biological Darwinism, which I’m not sure works in the case of sentient beings, really afect everything you do? Do you really wake up thinking “I must Propagate! Better comb my hair. I must survive to propagate, better eat my wheatiesTM”
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Speak for your children pal. Mine are not animals that need to have pavlovian techniques used to raise them. I want them not just to make the right decision because they fear punishment but to freely choose that decision even in a situation where they have no way of being found out.
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Lord save me from loonies!
So you’d prefer to instil a fear of yourself in your kids and make sure they will do no wrong if they feel they can be caught (of course if they think they can get away with it all bets are off)?
Yep no issues here perfectly normal kids come out of this environment.
At least they will be able to propagate which is all they really want to do anyway. :dubious:
Yep, it’s all about teaching your kids not to be spineless wimps. :rolleyes:
Let’s get past the euphemisms and call a spade a spade. What you are talking about is not discipline, it’s called child abuse, pure and simple. It’s part of a cycle. You want to hurt your kids in the same way daddy hurt you. That is a bad thing. What you really need is to get help, and the sooner the better.
All I can say to this is that it is people like you that will keep me in clients forever. I have no idea how you can liken training a child to training a puppy. There are very different standards for treating animals. A few months ago when my brother’s dog bit my neice, he was put down. Is that to say that if your child bites someone, that you would in essence ‘put them down’? A dog has no other way of learning other than conditioning, and so that is how you train a dog. A child has the ability to learn and process emotions and behaviors.
Also, I spend my life counseling children who come from homes of abuse and neglect (as well as deliquents, etc). I can tell you that it is not as simple as they will get over it. Intensive therapy for a year might not even get them over it. A parent beats a child they may deal with this for the rest of their lives. Spanking is controversial, and I am not sure that I feel one way or another, but this camp cannot be compared to spanking. This is not saying you did bad I will spank you this many times. This camp is I don’t like what you are doing and I am just going to turn you over to people to be beaten into submission.
This camp shows no follow-up care or continued counseling to deal with the psychological trauma that comes from treatment like this. Hearing about this and peoples responses to this makes me angry, and I cannot believe that people may at some level think this is okay. This is abuse and damaging, children cannot process enough to deal with something like this.
Stemba, I’m sorry you had such a rough upbringing although you, at least, don’t seem at all regretful of it. However, in all seriousness, I’d like to ask if anybody else, in real life, has ever suggested that you are scary? Your ideas seem bizarre and while that in itself doesn’t invalidate your beliefs, I do wonder if you accept them as being seriously out of step with mainstream thought on the issue.
Rarely do I read a thread that makes me as nauseous as this one. Not because I’m disgusted with this post or that post but because the wounds are still fresh and painful.
However, I feel it is something of my duty to respond, fighting ignorance and all that.
I am one of those parents who have placed heir child in a ‘boot-camp’ type of home for troubled teens. This one was in the United States. (It never occurred to me to look outside of the U.S.A.)
For those of you who condem me or call me evil or assume I/m some kind of wierd, bible-thumping, frothing at the mouth loon, well, sorry, I’m not.
I agree that it could seem to be inhumane. I thank God that your home life/childhood/children was such that you are so far away from the anguish of this descision that you cannot imagine being here. Be grateful. (I am at work, so be patient)
When loving parents are faced with this it gets down to a “Sophie’s choice” basically. For those who never saw the movie, Sophie was a WW2 Jewish woman who had to choose which child she would take with her to the Nazi work farm and which would be sent to the gas chamber. Horrifying. That’s how it felt for his mother and me.
We sent our 15 year old son to that place in December of 2002 and I just came back from picking him up. He’s been home for 14 days and whether it helped or not in the long run, well, it’s just too early to tell. There is some improvement. He talks to us more readily and he’s not lost his temper, yet. I think he’s grown up a little.
I’ll answer any questions that you may have on the mechanics of the process, the behavior that led us to that point and what we knew or didn’t know. I will respectfully try to ignore any comments that assume I am a monster or that are merely insulting.
I am not going to condemn you for trying to help your son before it is too late. I see kids I am sure are like your son. I know that at times a “boot-camp” is what will work for them. There is a strong difference between this camp and where I am sure you sent your son to. The one you sent your son to was in the US where these things are highly monitored. I have myself seen kids sent to one of these and I support it.
I work in a different type of residential. There is a lack of drill sargents, but our units are locked. Kids cannot leave the halls without supervision and their bedrooms and the bathrooms are locked, and a staff has to let them in. I am sure that the kids in our program are not much different than your son, but the court chose this option for them.
I am sure that your son was not kidnapped in the middle of the night and flown out of the country. I am sure that he was in a program where he knew what he needed to know to get through it, and he was probably allowed to contact you at some point in the first six months that he was there. Also, you picked him up recently, which means he was there for 7 or 8 months. This is a pretty normal stay for any sort of residential program for teens. I would not put you into the same category as those who are going for this other camp. If your son got the help he needed to change his behavior, good for you for doing what I am sure was very difficult.
As I write more, this camp makes me more angry. I cannot believe they can kidnap children in the middle of the night and deny them contact with their family for at least six months. I can tell you that breaks all US Recipients Rights laws. There are some pretty harsh camps and detention centers in the US, but they are at least regulated to protect the rights of the children.
Has the possibility been considered by parents that teenagers are by and large difficult to get along with on account of horomones and thingies, and that if they see change in their child, it’s because the horomone tide has ebbed? I mean, aren’t there studies showing that teenagerhood goes into spontanous remission after several years, and that these camps may very well be analogous to beating your head into a wall for seven days to cure a week-long bout of the flu?
BMalion, I just wanted to thank you for chiming in. I think that a lot of folks are turning child discipline into a black/white issue when deciding what consitutes abuse. I tend to be a fairly strict disciplinarian, but I don’t think I’m nearly as far along the ‘children are chattel’ spectrum as Stemba is.
Frankly, the camps in the OP scare me, but mostly because they appear to be outside of US police jurisdiction, and there is no real accountability in the case of abuse (which seems likely).
BMalion, could you please, and if this is too personal, I understand, give us some idea of the circmstances leading up to this decision? A lot of folks tend to think that this option exists only as a result of failed parenting/ abuse. I tend to think that it’s not that simple.
Not to be the showtune queen I am, but I have to quote Les Miz here: So never kick a dog
Because he’s just a pup
…
So you’d better run for cover
When the pup grows up! (The song is called Little People)
That kid will grow up to either a) resent and/or hate the parents who he/she was beaten by and thus resent and/or hate parental or authority figures or b) become an abuser themselves…
except for the women… girls who are abused physically (and spanking counts you ignoramus) are more likely to become involved in unhealthy, abusive relationships
so good job on becoming a screwed up person and on spreading that. I hope your nephew’s parents know that you hit him. Spanking is hitting, it leaves a scar, it makes ppl angry on the inside and i hope he bloody well reports you when he grows up.
Don’t judge the book by its cover…worked miracles with my 2-3 year old twin sons. Very small children with limited communication and impulse control are much like very smart animals (albeit far more precious). As one of the reviewers put it, its more about consistency and realistic expectations.
As far as out of counrty camps…eeek, don’t think I could ever go that far. I could see a handful of extreme cases needing something like that but sheesh.
Not all of us have the opportunity to pursue advanced psychology and our parents may not have set the best examples for us. In my experience with my own children (regualr and step) too much freedom is just as dangerous as excessive discipline. With constant threat of CPS being an anonymous phone call away, children have a HUGE weapon to point at parents who try to enforce any kind of punishment for serious misbehavior.
You could end up with police and CPS on your doorstep for grounding your kid because “somebody” called and said I locked my kid in his room for 3 days even when I did nothing of the sort. Of course now that you are in the “system” they will want to “check up” on you now and then. God forbid you get another “anonymous” call later.
Sometimes I wonder what is more dangerous to a childs long term psychological well being. The threat and judicious use of corporal punishment, or the near absolute power to invoke the wrath of a state agency famous for some of its abuses of power.
Animals use force to teach their cubs, pups, etc to do and not do certain things. We are flipping human beings! We have the abililty to have morals and ethics, which are not based on a fear of consequences. Morality is based on a concept of right and wrong and understanding that although you have the choice between the two, you should choose right b/c it will bring more good into the world. Yeah, absurdists say that what we do doesnt matter, but I prefer the existentialist philosophy with some optimism: What we do has no meaning but what we put into it, and I choose to put a helluva lot of meaning into my life.
Bitch, I ain’t spineless. If I wanted to, we could “take this outside.” But see, as a human being (im not sure if you still get to be a card carrying member of homo sapiens), I am able to CHOOSE to do the RIGHT thing and say “no, violence bad.”
I’m 17, off to college soon, no angel but I will tell you something: everytime my grandmother threatened to spank me, she lost respect in my eyes. Everytime my parents chose to send me to the corner for five minutes (or the number of minutes my age was), I learned a lesson. I sass back now, yes. But I also do so for a reason, for an injustice I feel was done to me. My parents taught me right (tolerance, understanding, a love of progress and knowledge) from wrong (bigotry, hate, propagating disunity) without so much as threatening to raise a hand
To the people who sent their kid off: look, we ain’t perfect. Its tough shit being a teen today. And you know what, Im sure you tried shrinks. I hope the camp you sent your kid off to was a decent place that you had CHECKED OUT BEFORE HAND and VISITED RANDOMLY. These places are just like nursing homes… before you send your dependent off, make sure its ok.
From the tone of this post I seriously doubt you are a monster of any kind. I am kinda curious how these facilities actually operate and on what kind of “philosophy” do they instill discipline. For example maybe priveledges must be “earned” through proper behavior, or something like that.
Actually, he was “kidnapped” in the middle of the night. The advice we recieved from all quarters was that this would be the best way to prevent violence or running away. It was done at 4:00 am and it was handled professionally and safely. It took about 90 seconds from start to finish. Then they drove to the airport. No cuffs.
I sent my 16 year old away to a boot camp in a city 4 hours from my house. He was in lock-down mode and was only granted visitation by parents 1.5 hours a month. He was however allowed mail on a daily basis. I kept him here for 8 months and he returned a changed young man.
Sending him away was very difficult but he was getting into trouble with the law and headed down a very very bad path. It was my last choice.
You would be amazed what some 17 year olds consider an injustice.
You seem to be a good kid, hell you’re a doper I hope my kids grow up to be Dopers too :D.
You should have seen the tirade from my soon to be stepdaughter when my wife refused to sign permission for her to get her tongue pierced @ age 15. I think the concrete she was standing on blistered from the barrage of profanity from her. I believe (maybe I’m totally wrong) that at least some children especially teens abuse their parents and expect the system to shelter them from repercussions because they are “just kids”.
In general
I will feel that I have failed as a parent if my children refuse to acknowledge the fact that there are often very physically painful repercussions for exerting your “rights” at some people. If my stepdaughter tried this stunt a few years from now on some random person on the street she would have stood a decent chance of getting her nose busted for her trouble.
The adult world is not always about what you want to do, its more often about what must be done. Understanding the difference IMHO is one of the key things that makes a “grown up” person.