Being brainwashed into a belief is not a good reason to hold said belief.

Great Debates
521

[

](The Principia Discordia)

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Atheism is a “won’t believe” issue
[/quote]

Good bit of mindreading, but no, atheism is not necessarily a “doesn’t believe” issue, and often is, more accurately, a recognition that the fallacy of the excluded middle is not a good thing to engage in. That between beliving in the existence of a thing, and believing in the nonexistence of a thing, there is simply a lack of belief. It’s the null hypothesis, if you would.

Agnostic atheism is not a contradiction in terms. And neither is agnostic theism.

[QUOTE=Bible man]

Self proclaimed "atheists” are just avoiding the responsibility of adjusting their lives to a higher power through denial; it’s just a defense mechanism.
[/QUOTE]

No, you see, someone not beliving your flights of fancy, and not being scared by them, isn’t exactly a defense mechanism. Nor can someone ‘avoid’ something that they consider to be an elaborate con game, either. Do you fear Xenu’s plots?

Again, you seem unable to look at your own beliefs with anything approaching a critical analysis. Ponder why it is that you believe atheists are “in denial” about YHVH, but you are not in denial about Odin, the Allfather, who loves you very much and you really should worship.

Once you can understand why someone who lacks belief will respond in exactly the same way to your claims that there is an omnipotent personal God who had a little Jewish boy as a son, and someone else’s claims that there are many gods who sit in the halls of Asgard, and a child’s claim that he’s got an invisible friend.

You see, we’d still like to see some actual dragon tracks.

522

Oh, and:

[QUOTE=Bible man]
There are many outside ancient sources that do verify many of the Bible’s writings but Christians don’t need those to accept it as authoritative in itself; and wherever there might be disagreements, we accept the Bible’s testimony above other sources.
[/QUOTE]

The adjective you were looking for is not “Christians.”

523

[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
It’s not original with Pratchett. I know I’ve read it before, possibly by and/or about C. S. Lewis (in his atheist phase).
[/QUOTE]

More than likely. Pterry never plagiarises, but he’s not above treading the ground that others have broken for him. :smiley:

(And since he’s generally a very funny man indeed, I’d be the last to cry out on him.)

524

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Which is simply a way for you to avoid the fact that the “prophet Daniel” was an author in the second century B.C.E. I have not denied that the book is prophetic (i.e., “speaking for God”), only noting that your claim that it represents a case of foreknowledge (which is a corruption of the meaning of prophecy) is an error.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus, Who is the Truth, would not endorse a book which contained any falsehoods, such as being misdated or written for another purpose than that stated by the author. Not being a believer, I’m sure that His endorsement means nothing to you, but it does to those who regard Christ as being God in human form. Also, the admonition of Jesus to study the book to prepare for things to come defines the scope of prophecy to include future happenings, not just inspired teaching or preaching as you have tried to limit it. The book details 2500 years of Gentile world history beginning with Israel’s captivity by Babylon up to the final Gentile world kingdom (our time). This will be followed by the establishment of God’s kingdom which will remain forever.

525

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Jesus, Who is the Truth, would not endorse a book which contained any falsehoods, such as being misdated or written for another purpose than that stated by the author. Not being a believer, I’m sure that His endorsement means nothing to you, but it does to those who regard Christ as being God in human form. Also, the admonition of Jesus to study the book to prepare for things to come defines the scope of prophecy to include future happenings, not just inspired teaching or preaching as you have tried to limit it. The book details 2500 years of Gentile world history beginning with Israel’s captivity by Babylon up to the final Gentile world kingdom (our time). This will be followed by the establishment of God’s kingdom which will remain forever.
[/QUOTE]

Well, many of us do believe in Jesus Christ as “truly God and truly man” (Council of Chalcedon, Acta V) and do not subscribe to your opinion of what Jesus was doing in referencing the Tanakh – nor in your bizarre eschatology. Nor do we attempt to substitute for faith in the Living God the worship of a leatherbound idol that is alleged, with all its errors and faults, to be the only way in which one can be sure to encounter him.

526

“I’m Jesus Christ, and I endorse this scripture.”

527

[QUOTE=Anduril]
By extension, are we saying that any atheist who exclaims “Oh God!”, is actually expressing an inner consciousness on the existence of God? Hmmm… Considering that it’s a common phrase ( much like “being put here on hearth” is)…Nope, it’s sooo not compelling.
[/QUOTE]

To someone like Dawkins, who recognizes the propensity of man to believe in God and who’s mission is to rid mankind of those genetically ingrained “error codes”, it means plenty. If the vanguard of your “faith” in the non-existence of God has failed on such an elementary level, what real hope is there for the rest of you?

528

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Which is simply a way for you to avoid the fact that the “prophet Daniel” was an author in the second century B.C.E. I have not denied that the book is prophetic (i.e., “speaking for God”), only noting that your claim that it represents a case of foreknowledge (which is a corruption of the meaning of prophecy) is an error.
[/QUOTE]

What is the meaning of prophecy if not foreknowledge?

529

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
What is the meaning of prophecy if not foreknowledge?
[/QUOTE]
Prophecy means speaking for God. It was only when later peoples confused the predictions (that were intended to provide bona fides more than to express God’s will) with the actual intent of God that the word got corrupted. Certainly, in common speech, “prophecy” now has the meaning of “foretell,” but someone who has studied Scripture as thoroughly as Bible man should not be confused by the later corruption of meaning. (Specifically, when the word “prophesy” is found in Scripture–written before the word picked up new meanings–it should be understood as speaking for God, not Foretelling the future.)

530

[QUOTE=Bible man]
If the vanguard of your “faith” in the non-existence of God has failed on such an elementary level, what real hope is there for the rest of you?
[/QUOTE]

Yet again, stop applying “religious” reckoning to us, it’s obvious that you don’t understand the ‘average’ atheist’s mindset, let alone the variations between all of us who self-identify as being without belief.

We certainly don’t have a faith, in quotes or otherwise. And we don’t have a rearguard, vanguard, leaders, followers, or holy scriptures. We can only be defined in the most narrow of specifics; we happen to lack a belief in any God or Gods.

As for the “hope” for the rest of us? Dawkins doesn’t speak for me, and he ceratinly doesn’t think for me.
I do that.

And that, I suspect, is why many a-theists aren’t exactly sweating what Dawkins says. Or how he phrases it. Or how it’s twisted to serve someone’s agenda.

531

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Prophecy means speaking for God. It was only when later peoples confused the predictions (that were intended to provide bona fides more than to express God’s will) with the actual intent of God that the word got corrupted. Certainly, in common speech, “prophecy” now has the meaning of “foretell,” but someone who has studied Scripture as thoroughly as Bible man should not be confused by the later corruption of meaning. (Specifically, when the word “prophesy” is found in Scripture–written before the word picked up new meanings–it should be understood as speaking for God, not Foretelling the future.)
[/QUOTE]

Ah! I trust you here Tom but for my own edicfication any suggested reading to verify this with another source.

Whats your take on

1 Peter 1:20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In Jewish tradition do they view the scriptures as literally being the Word of God?

532

I guess I’ve been hanging out in the OT too much. There are a couple of places where what I call the corruption of the meaning does occur in the New Testament. I had forgotten that (since “speaking for God,” regardless of foretelling is the standard meaning in the Septuagint, Paul, and all the Gospels except Matthew, who uses it both in its traditional meaning and as foretelling, and all the other epistles except 2 Peter).

So, while I would still say that Bible man is playing games to make Scripture conform to his preconceptions, he would win this round, since he was quoting Matthew.

(Your citation, BTW, s/b 2 Peter 1:20.)

533

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Well, many of us do believe in Jesus Christ as “truly God and truly man” (Council of Chalcedon, Acta V) and do not subscribe to your opinion of what Jesus was doing in referencing the Tanakh – nor in your bizarre eschatology. Nor do we attempt to substitute for faith in the Living God the worship of a leatherbound idol that is alleged, with all its errors and faults, to be the only way in which one can be sure to encounter him.
[/QUOTE]

These scriptures are applicable to your post regarding that which is recorded in that leatherbound book ie, Christ’s teachings: Luke6:46-49, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord and do not practice what I tell you? For every one who comes to Me and listens to My words and does them, I will show you what he is like: He is like a man building a house who dug and went down deep, and laid a foundation upon the rock; and when a flood arose, the torrent broke against that house and could not shake or move it, because it had been founded on a rock. But he who merely hears, and does not practice doing My words, is like a man who built a house on the ground, without a foundation; against which the torrent burst and immediately it collapsed and fell, and the breaking and ruin of that house was great.”
1Jn2:3, “This is how we may discern that we are coming to know Him: if we keep His teachings.”
Luke8:21, “My mother and My brothers are those who listen to the Word of God and do it!”
Matt7:21, “Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.”
1Jn2:4, “Whoever says, I know Him but fails to keep and obey His commandments is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.”
Matt19:17, “If you would enter into life, you must continually keep the commandments.”
John8:51, “he who steadfastly obeys My teachings will never see or experience death.”
James1:22, “But be doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”
And one from the OT: Psalm50:16-17 “What right have you to recite My statutes, or to take My covenant on your lips, seeing you hate instruction and correction and cast My words behind you - discarding them?

Without obeying Christ’s teachings (which are recorded in the Bible), you are in danger of hearing these words when Christ returns : “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly - disregarding My commands.“ (Matt7:23)
Further, my “bizarre eschatology” is from Christ’s own words, also found in that leather bound book ie, Matt24:1-51, Luke21:5-36

534

[QUOTE=Bible man]
These scriptures are applicable to your post regarding that which is recorded in that leatherbound book ie, Christ’s teachings: Luke6:46-49, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord and do not practice what I tell you? For every one who comes to Me and listens to My words and does them, I will show you what he is like: He is like a man building a house who dug and went down deep, and laid a foundation upon the rock; and when a flood arose, the torrent broke against that house and could not shake or move it, because it had been founded on a rock. But he who merely hears, and does not practice doing My words, is like a man who built a house on the ground, without a foundation; against which the torrent burst and immediately it collapsed and fell, and the breaking and ruin of that house was great.”
1Jn2:3, “This is how we may discern that we are coming to know Him: if we keep His teachings.”
Luke8:21, “My mother and My brothers are those who listen to the Word of God and do it!”
Matt7:21, “Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.”
1Jn2:4, “Whoever says, I know Him but fails to keep and obey His commandments is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.”
Matt19:17, “If you would enter into life, you must continually keep the commandments.”
John8:51, “he who steadfastly obeys My teachings will never see or experience death.”
James1:22, “But be doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”
And one from the OT: Psalm50:16-17 “What right have you to recite My statutes, or to take My covenant on your lips, seeing you hate instruction and correction and cast My words behind you - discarding them?

Without obeying Christ’s teachings (which are recorded in the Bible), you are in danger of hearing these words when Christ returns : “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly - disregarding My commands.“ (Matt7:23)
Further, my “bizarre eschatology” is from Christ’s own words, also found in that leather bound book ie, Matt24:1-51, Luke21:5-36
[/QUOTE]

John 8;51 doesn’t mention loss of soul, and all those people have long died,that generation passed and nothing happened, It could be this was used as a way to keep people in line.

Monavis

535

[QUOTE=monavis]
John 8;51 doesn’t mention loss of soul, and all those people have long died,that generation passed and nothing happened, It could be this was used as a way to keep people in line.Monavis
[/QUOTE]

He was speaking here of the spirit of the believer not the body. The body stays on earth until Christ returns, at which time it is ressurected and joined again with the spirit. This is referred to in 2Cor5:1-8, summarized by “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. The process for unbelievers is different as their spirits wait in Sheol until their ressurection after the millenium; they then face the Final Judgement (Rev20:11-15).

536

Bibleman, I have been following this thread and I am still waiting for you to provide some examples of prophesies that Jesus actually fulfilled. Can I expect that anytime soon or are you admitting defeat on that one?

537

He already admitted his abject and crushing failure in post 502.
Well, at least, in a way that was consistent with the level of intellectual honesty he’s displayed so far.

538

[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
Bibleman, I have been following this thread and I am still waiting for you to provide some examples of prophesies that Jesus actually fulfilled. Can I expect that anytime soon or are you admitting defeat on that one?
[/QUOTE]

Besides the tongue in cheek defeat to Finn, the only quasi-admission was to the math geek about the length of time the sun has been burning and will continue to burn. I only abandoned the discussion because it got too far off the path and since he doesn’t have access to the full data (no one except Bible believers knows when the sun was actually formed) and he likewise couldn’t factor in the data concerning the fact that stars never completely burn out, it was too much of a diversion with very little substantive value to pursue.
Although there are approximately 300 prophecies concerning Christ’s first coming, some of them are duplicates. And only eight fulfilled predictions about the Messiah are actually necessary to place the occurence beyond the realm of chance. For example, being Jewish, having a virgin birth, born in Bethlehem, will be called a Nazarene, will die by crucifixion, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, etc etc. Why not find a Bible and look them up yourself? Shirley you have access to a bible.

539

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Besides the tongue in cheek defeat to Finn, the only quasi-admission was to the math geek about the length of time the sun has been burning and will continue to burn. I only abandoned the discussion because it got too far off the path and since he doesn’t have access to the full data (no one except Bible believers knows when the sun was actually formed) and he likewise couldn’t factor in the data concerning the fact that stars never completely burn out, it was too much of a diversion with very little substantive value to pursue.
…
[/QUOTE]

(The “math geek” still here and reading this reading this lousy thread. Why, I do not know. However…)

You abandoned the fast hydrogen consumption arguments that you introduced. They were your arguments and your arguments were flimsy. If you did not have enough data to support your arguments or your arguments were not sufficiently on point, then you should not have introduced them. You have no one to blame but yourself.

(Was that clear enough?)

540

Well… I must admit, I’ve seen the light. Yes, at first the fact that BM needs to lie and distort things in order to make his claims threw me off. I can now admit, though, I was lost and in need of saving. It took his sweet sweet lies to show me the Truth.

And I would like to share that Truth with you, BM.