You let WHO back into your life? (Religion, not relationships)

[Chef_Troy]

First things first: I am not a Christian. At most, I might consider myself agnostic with strongly disbelieving tendencies. I do not hassle Christians - I’m willing to live and let live, mainly because I believe they shouldn’t be blamed for believing something they were indoctrinated into believing when they were too young to think for themselves. When you’re a little kid and a grownup tells you something, you accept their authority.

However, I have always felt that only an utter fool would hear the things a Christian church expects you to believe (and not only without a shred of proof, but with an insistence upon blind faith!), as an adult, and find them credible when Occam’s Razor would seem to indicate that it’s MUCH more likely that all that malarkey is intended to benefit the church right here on earth.

I just found out that someone I consider a good friend, and a smart person, has made a conscious decision to believe in God again after falling out with Christianity years ago after a) deciding it was all bullshit and b) becoming completely disgusted with all the horrors that have been done in the name of God.

My reaction was exactly the same, I feel sure, as it would be if I heard that this man had suffered severe brain damage. I find it both abhorrent and incomprehensible that anyone could deliberately decide, “I choose to believe this.” I find myself mourning him, just as if he were dying of some incurable disease.

And yet, I would be the first to admit that my attitude towards Christians in general, and my friend in particular, is snobbish. Who am I to sneer at him? I don’t KNOW I’m right, and even if I am, that doesn’t make it okay to look down on him. Because I am. To my own horror, I am looking down on my friend for this decision.

I’m not going to say anything to him about how I feel. How he feels about God is not my business, and How I feel about how he feels isn’t HIS business.

but I’m sad. And I’m sad that I’m sad.

[Ambivalid]

Nm

[Trinopus]

Alas, been there and seen that. A very good friend of mine was raised Catholic, but realized how many problems there were in that brand of Christianity, and let it all lapse. Stopped going to Mass, and, over time, simply stopped being Catholic at all.

Then…he decided to take up a fervent and energetic membership in a Protestant denomination.

As if he’d managed to stop drinking…and decided to take up smoking instead. “Our situation has not improved.”

It serves a need in some people. Probably less harmful than alcohol or tobacco, anyway.

[Gatopescado]

By the Power of Beer, I Drive You Out!

By the Power of Beer, I Drive You Out!

By the Power of Beer, I Drive You Out!

[Jeff_Lichtman]

I don’t understand where belief comes from for some people. I can understand being convinced by evidence. I can understand having an emotional experience that changes one’s outlook. What’s beyond me is believing in something simply because you’ve decided to believe it.

[Malacandra]

@Chef_Troy

First things first: I am not a Christian. At most, I might consider myself agnostic with strongly disbelieving tendencies. I do not hassle Christians - I’m willing to live and let live, mainly because I believe they shouldn’t be blamed for believing something they were indoctrinated into believing when they were too young to think for themselves. When you’re a little kid and a grownup tells you something, you accept their authority.

See, there’s your problem. You’ve convinced yourself that that’s the only reason anyone would ever believe in God, and now your friend has demonstrated that it ain’t necessarily so, and your comforting world-view has been shaken.

But, you know, if you want to carry right on looking down your nose at the poor unreasoning fool, you have come to exactly the right place for validation. With just the occasional dissenting voice, but they’re easily howled down.

[Bricker]

@Chef_Troy

However, I have always felt that only an utter fool would hear the things a Christian church expects you to believe (and not only without a shred of proof, but with an insistence upon blind faith!), as an adult, and find them credible when Occam’s Razor would seem to indicate that it’s MUCH more likely that all that malarkey is intended to benefit the church right here on earth.

There is plenty of credible proof to support my belief in God.

Unfortunately, it’s not proof that I can demonstrate, so while the fact of its existence is crystal clear to me, it’s not something I can effectively communicate to anyone else.

As an analogy, take cosmic rays. I assume you believe such things exist.

But if you and I were standing in a flat forest, miles from any device that could measure rates of ionization, and miles from any significant elevation, what could you say to me that would show me that cosmic rays exist? The best you could do would be to assure me that you knew of proof, and that when we left the forest, you could show me, but if you needed evidence right there, you could not provide it.

Yet that would not make cosmic rays fictional. But you’d agree – I hope – that it would be simultaneously rational for you to believe that cosmic rays exist, and for me to regard their existence as unproven, and for neither of us to be fools.

[Clothahump]

@Bricker

As an analogy, take cosmic rays. I assume you believe such things exist.

But if you and I were standing in a flat forest, miles from any device that could measure rates of ionization, and miles from any significant elevation, what could you say to me that would show me that cosmic rays exist? The best you could do would be to assure me that you knew of proof, and that when we left the forest, you could show me, but if you needed evidence right there, you could not provide it.

Yet that would not make cosmic rays fictional. But you’d agree – I hope – that it would be simultaneously rational for you to believe that cosmic rays exist, and for me to regard their existence as unproven, and for neither of us to be fools.

The problem with your analogy is that the proof of the existence of cosmic rays does exist, and it can be duplicated by anyone with the proper equipment. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the existence of a god of any kind.

[not_what_you_d_expect]

My mothers family was catholic and my fathers was southern babtist. I was inundated with religion growing up, but even at a young age, I never really believed. But I always saw that as a failing in myself.

My view has changed a lot throughout my life. I have lately begun to see christians as brain washed members of a cult, no different than any other cult, except in size. I don’t dislike them or think they are stupid, but I can not understand how they can convince themselves of the truth of the bible. But most of the christians I personally know have never even read the bible in it’s entirety anyway.

[VinylTurnip]

Points off for the clickbaity thread title.

Maybe you can guide your friend back out of the light with one weird trick that his pastor doesn’t want him to know about.

[John_Mace]

@Bricker

There is plenty of credible proof to support my belief in God.

Unfortunately, it’s not proof that I can demonstrate, so while the fact of its existence is crystal clear to me, it’s not something I can effectively communicate to anyone else.

As an analogy, take cosmic rays. I assume you believe such things exist.

But if you and I were standing in a flat forest, miles from any device that could measure rates of ionization, and miles from any significant elevation, what could you say to me that would show me that cosmic rays exist? The best you could do would be to assure me that you knew of proof, and that when we left the forest, you could show me, but if you needed evidence right there, you could not provide it.

Yet that would not make cosmic rays fictional. But you’d agree – I hope – that it would be simultaneously rational for you to believe that cosmic rays exist, and for me to regard their existence as unproven, and for neither of us to be fools.

Except we could take you to where the equipment is that will show you cosmic rays exist. Where can you take me to show that God exists?

[watchwolf49]

@John_Mace

Except we could take you to where the equipment is that will show you cosmic rays exist. Where can you take me to show that God exists?

You can also set up an experiment to try and prove cosmic rays don’t exist, that’s science.

---

The question is what do we replace religion with? One of your complaints is an elite priesthood dominating the masses. Would you replace that with an elite scientific community dominating the masses? For the stupid, it’s best to say “Thou shall not kill” rather than explain the evolutionary model of social interactions in higher primates.

Please don’t judge Christianity by the actions of Christians … I promise not to judge Evolution by how the Nazi’s implemented it. Fair enough?

[Rachellelogram]

I mourned an atheist friend’s “descent” into Greek Catholicism in college the same way. Eventually I grew to understand that he wanted/needed religion for the social aspects, and to fill the void his terrible parents left behind. I think a lot of people end up needing the same as they age. It’s like that song goes:

When I was young,
I never needed anyone.

I’m still an atheist, but I’m getting better at not judging those who aren’t.

[Czarcasm]

@watchwolf49

The question is what do we replace religion with?

That’s like saying “What destructive habit should I replace smoking with?”

@watchwolf49

Please don’t judge Christianity by the actions of Christians … I promise not to judge Evolution by how the Nazi’s implemented it. Fair enough?

What are you talking about? In what way did the Nazis “implement” evolution?

[Ludovic]

@VinylTurnip

Points off for the clickbaity thread title.

I was expecting a pitting of the World Health Organization.

[Chef_Troy]

I didn’t properly emphasize the part of the OP that led to me pitting myself.

My usual position on Christians is “more fool you, but help yourself.” I honestly thought I was fine with other people believing as long as they left me out of it. But when I heard my friend say he’s decided to believe - DECIDED to - my reaction was NOT “do what you like.” I want to SHAKE him. I want to somehow force him to recant, even though his conversion (I guess re-conversion is a better way to put it) won’t affect me at all.

That bothers me, because it’s proselytizing just as much as if I was trying to browbeat him INTO believing.

Here’s a new bit of info for you. When he told me what he’d decided, he said (I’m paraphrasing) that he quit considering himself Christian because he was appalled by the things Christianity had done to the world. Then he discovered that he was just as appalled by the things secular humanism had done to the world, and at least with Christianity, he had hope.

I wanted to rage at him that he’d already come to the conclusion that the hope Christianity offered was FALSE hope, and did he really believe that false hope was better than none? It’s like looking for a lost earring in a different room from where you lost it because the light’s better.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Rachellelogram

I mourned an atheist friend’s “descent” into Greek Catholicism in college the same way. Eventually I grew to understand that he wanted/needed religion for the social aspects, and to fill the void his terrible parents left behind. I think a lot of people end up needing the same as they age. It’s like that song goes:

When I was young,
I never needed anyone.

I’m still an atheist, but I’m getting better at not judging those who aren’t.

I have to admit, churchgoers who are quiet are preferable to soccer fans who are loud.

[Chimera]

I’ve known a fair few number of agnostics and even outright atheists who join a church after having children, primarily for social reasons.

It is a place to belong, a place to be with other people. In that, I don’t begrudge anyone wanting a place to be in their lives. I definitely understand it that desire.

[John_Mace]

@Chef_Troy

I didn’t properly emphasize the part of the OP that led to me pitting myself.

My usual position on Christians is “more fool you, but help yourself.” I honestly thought I was fine with other people believing as long as they left me out of it. But when I heard my friend say he’s decided to believe - DECIDED to - my reaction was NOT “do what you like.” I want to SHAKE him. I want to somehow force him to recant, even though his conversion (I guess re-conversion is a better way to put it) won’t affect me at all.

That bothers me, because it’s proselytizing just as much as if I was trying to browbeat him INTO believing.

Try Zen.

[BigT]

@Chef_Troy

I wanted to rage at him that he’d already come to the conclusion that the hope Christianity offered was FALSE hope, and did he really believe that false hope was better than none? It’s like looking for a lost earring in a different room from where you lost it because the light’s better.

Your assumption seems to be that no one would rather have false hope than no hope, but I beg to differ. Of course, true hope is better, but if all you have is no hope or a false hope, plenty of people choose the latter.

And you are probably more convinced than your friend that Christianity offers no hope at all. You may have both come to the conclusion that the hope is false, but his determination might be much closer than yours. Something that probably won’t help is still better than something that is guaranteed not to help.

Being hopeless is no way to go through life. I’m willing to bet that you don’t feel hopeless despite your lack of believe in God, but your friend does. Maybe thinking about it that way will help you to not be angry at him. Even feeling sorry for him would be better than feeling angry.