How can a just God punish lack of belief?

Great Debates
1

I am a college student, and so I see a fair amount of Christian evangelism from the student groups on campus. I am an atheist, so they are usually pretty eager to talk to me. One thing I’ve noticed that these evangelists will emphasize is that in Christianity, as opposed to all other major religions, good works have nothing to do with whether you will live forever in paradise. The only criteria, as it has been explained to me, are that you believe that Christ died for your sins, and you accept him as you saviour. If you fail to meet either, you go to hell. You go to hell and you die.

However, it strikes me that a just god would not punish me for my beliefs. For a just god would only punish me for sins I could, in principle, choose to do or not do, and I find that I cannot choose what I believe.

To convince myself of this, I considered a thought experiment. Suppose someone where to tell me that if I did not make myself believe that, say, a Republican will be President of the United States in 2078, then they would kill me and my family in some horrible fashion. Suppose further that I believe that they could and would make good on this threat. Still, I cannot see how I could make myself believe that a Republican will be President of the United States in 2078, though I would desperately want too. Not, of course, that I believe that this will not be the case. I have no belief either way. And no matter how I try, I could not change this. I can not make myself believe something by will alone.

Now, if the evil person making this threat could not entice me to believe something by will alone, even though I did believe in the dire consequence of my failure to do so, how can God expect me to have the power to choose to believe in him, when I don’t even believe in the threat of going to hell (since if I did, I’d already believe in him?)

I realize that, strictly speaking, God is not damning me to hell for my lack of belief, but rather for my sins which would have been expunged had I believed. But the fact remains that God is letting something which I cannot control determine whether I go to hell or not. It would be no better if he let the weather in Beijing on July 15th, 1357 (just to pick something at random) determine the fate of my soul.

And so I pose this question to those so inclined to answer: How can a just God (in effect) punish lack of belief?

2

Hi TMc, good question.

I’m only four years old as a Christian and so I’m still struggling to understand many things myself.

As I understand it, the sin bit goes like this… we do not become a sinner because we commit a sin. We are sinners and therfore we sin. This goes back to the ‘original sin’ committed by Adam and Eve.

So, I’m born a sinner and have thus started off along the wrong path (by the choice of Adam and Eve). God did not want us to go down the path that we have chosen but he gave us the free will to chose that path. He gave us the choice because he loves us.

He would like us instead, to chose to love him back and travel down his path… but being a smart sort of a guy he realised that our love must be given back freely or it is not true love.

So, God allows you to believe anything you chose and to follow any path you choose. He doesn’t force you to believe anything.

So where does that leave you. Well, it goes like this.

God’s kingdom (on earth) was replaced with Satan’s kingdom, the minute that ‘original sin’ was committed. All of us live here, on earth, in Satan’s kingdom.

Hence the lines ‘Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven’ from the Lord’s prayer.

God’s kingdom is separated from us but, given that he loves us, he wants us to ‘choose’ to return to him. He does this by getting messages to us one way or another.

In your case, it seems like the evangelical students that you mentioned are doing that job to some extent. He is also likely to use the power of the Holy Spirit to guide you and to fill you with his love.

In my case, after 48 years of chosing to travel ‘my’ path, he spoke to me in a number of ways. The interesting thing is that most Christians will tell you that their final conviction and salvation came from the work of the Holy Spirit within them rather than attempts to persuade them from outside influences.

However, he does need to prompt you to start searching for his truth. Hence the external elements, such as your friend’s attempts to bring you his message.

(He may even use message boards such as SDMB to begin a quest for the truth and to provide some answers for souls that may be lost but are somehow looking for the truth - if you get what I mean).

His hope is that you get the message and give your life back to him. The fact is, many never do make that choice in his favour. They either ignore his offering of love and eternal life or they choose to reject it for a whole variety of reasons.

For whatever reason that an individual chooses to reject God, they accept Satan instead (by default). The deal with Satan is simple… you die and go not to eternal life in God’s Kingdom but to the ‘Inferno’ as Dante put it.

In this sense, God does not punish you if you reject him and a relationship with him… you simply continue along the path that you you have chosen, having been alerted to the price that you will pay.

Wow!

That’s my first attempt to explain this, in this way. It’s something that I truly believe and my prayers would be twofold.

Firstly, that you are able to see the light eventually and come back into a relationship with your ‘Father in Heaven’ who loves you.

Secondly, that mature Christians out there will also talk to you and answer your question(s) so that you may ultimately make the correct decision about your future which is literally a matter of life and death.

Walor

3

He can’t, and therefore doesn’t.

Your evangelistic peers are misguided. What they have done is to take the modern meaning of the translation of a word and misapply it. Among modern words, a better translation of “pisteuo” is “trust in”. Thus, God is not asking for intellectual belief, but merely childlike trust. He is asking that you trust in Him or rely on Him. Hell is not a punishment, but a consequence of our decision to trust in something that is not Absolute Love.

If we may assume that, in accordance with the Christian faith that you’re examining, God’s credentials include the solitary ability to save us from death, i.e. Hell, then it makes sense to trust Him toward that end. Likewise, if we may assume that, again using the criteria of Christianity, that God has absolutely and resolutely deferred His will to our own, then it follows that the decision to trust is ours and ours alone.

By way of analogy (Hi, Gaudere!) consider that you make these same sorts of decisions every day of your earthly life. You choose whom you will trust, and whom you will not. The basis for your decision is whether the person — be he a teacher, a lifeguard, or a governor — is qualified to deliver what you are expecting. To reject God is merely to reject He Who will teach you Truth; to reject God is merely to reject He Who will save your Life; to reject God is merely to reject He Who will secure your Freedom.

I can understand why someone might look at the god presented by some evangelists and go, “Ewww, what a shithead god!” I join him in his incredulity! After all, they are presenting a teacher who does not want to fill your mind, but wants to empty it. They are presenting a lifeguard who holds a grudge against you. And they are presenting a governor who cares for nothing but his own career. Nowhere in that is there anything trustworthy.

But we can blame only ourselves if we take what we know of Martin Luther King from Aryan Nation, or what we know of Immanuel Kant from Ayn Rand, or what we know of Jesus from Religion Politicians.

The next time the evangelists corner you and call you damned for your “unbelief”, stand up straight, look them in the eye, and tell them these words:

God go with you, Tyrrell McAllister.

4

Tyrrell McAllister-

This is the very subject that I focused on through four years of grad school in Humanities: can we choose what we believe? Everyone in the program insisted that we can, but I maintained, and still do, that what I call belief cannot be chosen. I distinguish between faith and belief. If I truly believe something, it is a spontaneous thing, not a decision. Exerting faith is different–I can do that by choice, but that, to me, is very akin to the “willing suspension of disbelief” that we employ when we read fiction. It’s a lot like pretending to believe. But that isn’t belief.

If I could choose to believe in the Christian God, then it follows that Christians could, if they chose, believe in Ganesh, the Hindu god with multiple arms and the head of an elephant. Many Christians would regard that as ridiculous, without stopping to think that from the outside, their belief system can look equally ridiculous. (To their credit, the Hindus that I have spoken to regard their gods as symbols, representations of concepts, not as literally true.)

Walor-

I appreciate your calm style of writing; nothing makes non-believers laugh so hard as the red-faced, sweating, pulpit-pounding preachers that we so often hear. But if I may, I would suggest that your reply misses one point of the OP. You say that God allows us to believe anything we choose. But as I understand the OP, the point was that we can’t choose what to believe. I believe in gravity, and no matter how hard I try, I cannot unbelieve it. Could you, by your own effort, come to believe that gravity isn’t true? Could you choose to believe in Ganesh?

Maybe we are free to exert faith in whatever we choose–I did exert faith in the Christian God for a long time, until it became impossible to deny how false it all felt to me. The first measure of happiness I ever had in my life was when I finally admitted to myself that I just didn’t believe in Christianity. If I claimed to believe, if I pretended to believe, if I once again shouldered that burden that I carried for the first 30 years of my life, would that please God? I can’t imagine that God, if he exists, could be so easily fooled or placated.

I’m not interested in disabusing you of your religious faith–if it comforts you and makes you happy and good, then carry on. But I don’t believe that I can choose to share it.

Libertarian-

Still waiting for an answer on that question I asked you on the “When will religion die” thread.

5

Tyrrell… hope this isn’t too much of a highjack.

Mr O -

Four years ago I chose to become a Christian. For the first 48 years of my life had had chosen other things.

The moment that I made the decision, I believed new things… things that I may well have dismissed during my solitary walk in the wilderness years. Supernatural things even, that I know are very scary for some non-Christians to accept.

Funny thing is, that as a ‘young’ Christain I have now begun a search to find the truth. Fact is, just when I believe that I understand my new faith, someone helps me to see that my understanding may still be flawed. They show me new ways of thinking. Most important of all, the Holy Spirit is at work within and therefore, all things are possible.

Through this process, I realise that I must adjust or change my beliefs if I am walk side by side with the Lord. The beauty of my relationship with him is that he is a great teacher and he is patient with me. All that I ask of anyone else is that they be patient with me too… you see God isn’t through with me yet.

And so, of course I change my beliefs. If I do not choose them then how are they mine? Are they genetically implanted in some way… are they a one shot fill-up in the sense that once an idea that seems to make sense fills my head, I am then unable to replace it with a improved or better thought.

There were many things that I held dear before becoming a Christian. I could argue a strong case with the best of them. How many of those beliefs are now left in tatters as I am slowly brought into the light.

I really believe that I was in darkness and couldn’t see the truth. How fortunate that I can now see it (or at least bits of it). My life is now about questionning everything that I believe and listening very carefully to the Lord’s guidance on matters. He is my rock.

Could I believe in Ganesh. Well yes, in so far as I have freewill and choice. As a child, I believed in Santa Claus and the tooth-fairy… I don’t now.

I’m sorry that your walk with Christ ended as it did. I don’t suppose that you are the only one who would claim to have changed your faith in such a way. I personally can’t image my walk being a burden… quite the reverse. I feel liberated, free, enriched, full of life. That’s what God wants me to be.

I do know that my view of Christianity bears no resemblance to what I believed being a Christian was four years ago. I also now believe that there is a big difference between religious people and Christians. (maybe for another thread sometime).

I hope that I don’t offend you by saying that I understand your right to choose your new path… I chose mine for 48 years afterall. However, even though you chose to reject God for the moment, my prayers are that all lost souls will eventually find the truth through God and so… God bless you Mr O.

PS I have a wife who became a Christian at the same time as I did (long story) but I have four children who are not Christians. I know that ultimately, I can say nothing to change their beliefs… only they can make that choice. And so, I have to rely upon the Holy Spirit to do his work and bring them into the light. I pray for this daily and try to walk my new journey in their sight so that they become curious.

But all is lost if they cannot believe new things!

6

Walor-

Thanks for your concern and your kind words. I don’t want to begin this post with a hijack, so first I’ll address the question raised by the OP. What you said about believing in Santa fits well with what I say about belief: you used to believe in Santa, but could you now, if you tried, really believe that Santa exists? I can’t. For me, the move away from faith was a move from the darkness to the light, or so it seems to me. It isn’t so much that I chose to reject God, I simply chose to stop pretending to believe. The end of the belief was not of my choosing. Of course my beliefs, too, are always in the process of becoming.

(Here begins the hijack, but I’ll keep it brief.)
I do believe that a person’s goodness is separate from his or her religious beliefs. Based on this very brief exchange, I see you as a good, kind person, and I think your children are lucky to have such a father. I hope you don’t suffer too much grief over the fact that they don’t share your beliefs. I suspect that they still watch you and learn from you, and they might still come to accept your beliefs. At any rate, they can’t help but benefit from the example of your kindness. Not sure, but it’s possible that my own faith wouldn’t have ever come into question if I had been exposed to more Christians who exhibited a little more human decency.

I know this is Great Debates, and that often includes a lot of hostility. I’m grateful for your courtesy. And I hope it isn’t blasphemous for me, a non-believer, to say God bless you too. I hope you post in this thread again, partly because I’m 10 or 11 years younger than you and it seems disrespectful for me to have the last word. Still, I wanted to say thank you.

7

He can’t. Quit looking for consistancy in the bible and the cult of christ, because you aren’t going to find a lot of it. Such is the case with most brainwashing. Christianity has been used for a great many years to get otherwise decent people to have “faith” and do thier god’s work, (ie, the crusades, the nazis, various militant groups around the world, etc…). If you ever have a discussion about religion with a christian, see how long it takes before they fall back on “faith” and “you just gotta believe”. That’s when you know they don’t have any good arguments left, they just parrot all the bullshit and lies they’ve been told all thier xian lives. Do i just “have to believe” in santa claus and the easter bunny too? But as humans, anytime we don’t understand something, we seem to instantly equate it with some mystical bullshit. As we’ve progressed as a species, we’ve learned that hey, it ISNT zeus throwing lightning bolts at us, a chariot of fire is NOT being drawn across the sky each day, maybe that door slamming WASN’T a ghost, etc. Because now we understand these things. So just because our feeble human minds cannot comprehend the beginning of the universe, it MUST be the work of some supernatural being! And since we are terrified of dying and so VERY narcissistic, it’s IMPOSSIBLE that we might just die, no we’re too GOOD for that. We must live on forever in spirit. Anyways, if god does exist, he can haul his lazy ass down here from heaven to prove it and make believers out of us. I mean, come on i could come up with a better story than christianity. But, hey, if you want to believe in this dying religion and use it like crutch like all the other weaklings, be my guest. And as long as you do NOT evangelise everybody, hey believe whatever you want. :slight_smile:

-Dani

“A casual stroll through a madhouse proves that faith means NOTHING”

8

As a Reborn Reborn . . . now part of the true persecuted underclass in America; non-Christians, I certainly see a lot of debate in various locations. And appreciate the lack of viciousness displayed in this forum - so far :slight_smile:

Anyways, discussions of ‘god’ and the deitys presumed good nature or lack of - I’m always reminded of this story. Its an old one, circulating anonymously around the internet for years. Interested in comments. I didn’t write it, so please belay any urge to attack me, if you disagree attack the ideas so that perhaps we all can learn from each other!

The Parable of the Insane Dog Breeder

There once lived a man who bred dogs. Over the years he worked to produce a breed of strong, intelligent and loyal animals. At last he developed a unique breed which, he liked to think, reflected the best of his own nature. nature. And for awhile all was good. Then the animals began fighting. They fought among themselves and with other breeds. They fought and injured and killed, often for trivial reasons, sometimes for no reason at all. Worst of all in the breeder’s eyes, the dogs became disobedient, sometimes not even recognizing him as their master. Because he could not bear their savagery, nor endure their arrogant disobedience, the breeder decided he must destroy them. He planned to kill them all.

Then he had another idea. He loved his dogs so much, in spite of their unremitting savagery, that he decided to put his young son in the dog pen as a model of innocence and virtue, to save the dogs from themselves. Surely, in the presence of such an obvious example, a teacher sent by their master, the dogs would be humbled and would learn to reject their monstrous ways. But in his heart the breeder knew this would not happen. He knew the dogs would kill his son. And they did. The dogs ripped away the young man’s clothing and tore him to bloody pieces.

The insane breeder continued to love his dogs, and he told them, “Any of you who will believe this was my son, whom I allowed to be killed for your sakes, I will not punish, but I will bring you to live with me in my house.”
***Any human being who would do such a thing to his own son would rightly be condemned as insane, immoral and evil. In every human society, a person who abets the murder of an innocent for the sake of the unworthy, and calls it “love”, is rightly regarded as insane, immoral and evil. If we would hold this opinion of a humble dog breeder, what then can we say of an omnipotent and omniscient Deity who does the same thing? How much more insane, immoral and evil must a Deity be, to commit a morally equivalent act? This is the plain and obvious moral abomination at the core of Christianity: the Christian God has the morals of an insane dog breeder who feeds his child to monsters. To deny this conclusion we must abandon not only reason, but simple human decency as well.

Therefore, there either is no god - or the god we are presented with in the Bible is evil and unworthy of our worship.

9

Mr. O

Sorry. I was out of circulation as I began my study for Gaudere, which I’ve now suspended for just a bit so I can deal with Xeno’s excellent thread. I posted your answer. Please forgive the delay.

Dani Filth

Welcome to Straight Dope Great Debates. I think you might have mistaken it for the Pit, where rational debate is not required and where gratuitous insults to people are not precluded.

In the meantime, see if you can connect the items in column A with the items in column B (I’ve made it easy for you.):


Column A                       Column B

Argumentum ad antiquitatem     Christianity has been used
                               for a great many years...

Argumentum ad hominem          they just parrot all the
                               bullshit and lies...

Red herring                    Do i just "have to believe"
                               in santa claus and the
                               easter bunny too?

Straw man                      it ISNT zeus throwing
                               lightning bolts at us...

Slippery slope                 just because our feeble
                               human minds cannot
                               comprehend...

Argumentum ad novitatem        Because now we understand
                               these things.

Argumentum ad logicam          it MUST be the work of some
                               supernatural being...

Argumentum ad ignorantiam      Anyways, if god does exist,
                               he can...

Audiatur et altera pars        if you want to believe in
                               this dying religion...

Undistributed middle           use it like crutch like all
                               the other weaklings...

Amphiboly                      A casual stroll through a
                               madhouse proves that faith
                               means NOTHING

Other than the problems I’ve shown, I think you made a fine first effort! :wink:

10

Actually, reason was abandobed when the dog breeder story was concocted. In the real story, the Breeder and His Son are One and the Same and have no delusions that the “dogs” will not tear Him to pieces.

11

Hi Dani

I guess one of the first things that I now choose to believe as a Christian is that God did indeed create the heavens and the earth. If I don’t believe that, then everything else becomes difficult for me.

For the sake of debate, let’s take the position for a moment that I claim God created the heavens and the earth. I would then propose that anyone capable of doing that must be a pretty smart guy. I mean, look around… it wasn’t put together by some sort of planning committee in an R&D function of a large corporation was it?

So, given that we claim that putting a man on the moon, cloning a sheep, discovering a cure for stomach ulcers etc. are pretty smart things to do… who invented anything like the heavens and the earth yet?

It just strikes me as arrogance that for 48 years, I believed that I’d got things sussed. I was so certain about everything.

How could I have believed that with my puny brain, I could even begin to understand how God had created everything (or not) assuming that there was a God as I said. My position now is simple… I will never understand it fully because I am not capable of understanding it… if I could I would be on a par with God… and I’m not!

I have to believe that God is supernatural… for me, what else could he be… a regular guy from down the street?

I wouldn’t have been too far away from that viewpoint four years ago either. But I believe I’d missed the point. You see, he hadn’t walked away from me, I’d chosen to walk away from him and he allowed me to go… because he loved me.

The way I figure it, he can’t force me to love him. It’s my choice and decision… it has to be. As I’ve begun to explore with him, guess what. I’m finding all the time that he had/has/is providing evidence of his love for me. Point was, I couldn’t or wouldn’t see it.

Truth is, I find the evidence now by looking for it and asking for his guidance. And whilst I do not have the full picture yet (and never will have) I have faith in knowing that he hasn’t let me down so far.

As a father who loves his chidren unconditionally, how should I react if they said that I must make a dramatic gesture to prove my love for them… especially if they were to deny me publically or make little effort to find me and build a relationship with me or refuse to consider the evidence that already exists of my love for them? I doubt that I would respond to their demand for proof of the dramatic gesture type.

In my case, I have not evangelised my children but concentrated on my relationship with God. I pray for their salvation, I try to walk the straight path at all times (including in front of them), I give them my love, unconditionally, I answer their questions as they become curious (and they are now after 4 years) and then I put my faith in God that Holy Spirit will begin to work in them, and that they will eventually believe for themselves.

We can chose to believe anything that we want… we must just be careful what we believe.

12

>>We can chose to believe anything that we want… we must just be careful what we believe. <<

Yep, and like Lenny Bruce said “If you really want to play it safe, you better join ALL the religions!” :slight_smile:

13

In answer to the OP, I think that belief has little to do with god. Because what exactly do you believe in to believe in god? If god reveals himself to you and you still don’t believe you might be punished then, but probably not before.

I believe that if you reject gods help then he will probably not help you. That the thing in christanity of primary importance is Jesus, and that living a good life will always be more important than belief.

14

Doesn’t sound very “loving” to me – why am I held accountable for something my ancestors do? Even us “sinful” humans recognize that you cannot punish a child for the sins of the father (or mother).

The sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, right? So can I conclude that God also wants us to be ignorant, unquestioning cattle? If so, is this a God that I want to worship?

…but if you don’t believe the “right” things, you get to suffer the eternal pain/torment/boredom of Hell. Still doesn’t sound very “loving” to me.

So my choices are to either continue living as a reasoning, questioning, inquisitive (“sinful”) person, or give myself a lobotomy and mindlessly accept whatever God wants to dole out? Geez, it’s not much of a choice, is it?

The scary thing is, if I replaced the word “God” with “Zen Master Rama” (or any other term) above, most folks would quickly dismiss it as fanatical cult-type groupthink. But since it’s Christianlity, it gets a free ride. Odd, eh?

Sorry for the rant, but it’s this kind of reasoning that convinced me to be an atheist in the first place.

15

Nor is it a necessary bifurcation. I am reasoning, questioning, and inquisitive. I have given myself no lobotomy. Neither have I mindlessly accepted anything.

If you have spoken directly with Zen Master Rama, and he has demonstrated to your satisfaction that he is eternal and that he loves you, then what “most folks” think is pretty irrelevant.

I think that it is reasonable to conclude either way, that God exists or that He doesn’t. I believe that it is no accident that God’s existence is unprovable. I can think of no better way to implement moral free-will than to place a moral agent in an amoral context where he may conclude whatever he wishes, including whether I have placed him there.

16

Of course the God described in the Bible seems to spend quite a lot of time miraculously proving his existence to everyone from the Israelites in the desert to the Apostle Thomas to the disciples at Pentecost.

17

First of all I have to give Libertarian and Walor a commendation for a fantastic respectful Debate. I truly enjoy this type of debate.

As for Libertarian’s A and B columns, I had to clean off my screen I laughed so hard. Having had 4 years of Latin in high school and being raised Roman Catholic, Latin comes quite easy to me even 15 years later. Rock on Libertarian.

As for the Question on hand. I beleive this question is not only answered but it is LIVED through this debate. There are Aethiests, Christians, Angry souls, Happy souls, all expressing a point of common law -> Freedom to express ones self and freedom to be human.

As for the OP I have seen that thought experiment before, and I can tell you where. I was in a Theories of Religion class in Graduate school. We were studying such text as “The Sacred and Profane” and authors ranging from Otto to Plato. and you ask how a Just God can punnish for lack of belief? I surmise that “he” does not infact punnish for lack of belief. Humans collectively punnish each other, and themselves, continuously and with out remorse and regret. The Deadliness of our punnishment is that society as a whole does not discriminate between race, color or creed when it comes to punnishing ones self. Our insecurities and self worth project themselves on one another which cause people to seek a higher acceptance from a higher souorce than ourselves. A.A. says don’t do it yourself, go with God. the “going with God” part does not mean you have to be Christian, [I know many non-christian drunks] it means ask God/the universe to to help you over come your problem.

With out getting Waay off the subject, God/the Universe does not punnish us for lack of belief, we in fact punnish ourselves for our own lack of awareness of good. We also get tied up in the sickness of greed but that is a whole other thread.

Again Libertarian and Walor, good show…

18

This is exactly the claim that I am disputing, because my own experience is that this is far from true. If I truly believed that I would suffer eternally if I did not believe in God, still I could not do so by will alone. All that I could will myself to do would be to utter the words “I believe,” or to repeat them over and over in my head like a mantra, but they would just be words, and would fool neither myself nor an omniscient God. In fact, the only way I might be able to actually bring myself to believe something I don’t would be to somehow alter my personality by, say, fasting or drugs. But this, in effect, means to become another person.

I am not arguing that nothing could make me (the actual me here now, as opposed to some drug altered version of me) believe in God. If God were to appear before me, or to start speaking in my mind, then I would probably believe. But I cannot be held responsible for whether such things happen or not.

Now, none of this means that my beliefs are some how invariant, or that they never change as a consequence of my own actions. I might believe side A on some issue, but then, after researching the issue some more, be convinced that actually side B is in the right. So my action of researching altered my beliefs. But this would not be a case of me willing my beliefs to be different. I did not set out on the research with the intention of changing my beliefs. I might have set out with the intention of seeing if side B could convince me, but this is something different.

Similarly, the Christian God, should he exist, is always welcome to convince me of his existence. I will certainly not begrudge any deity which sets out to demonstrate to me Truth. My “heart” is always open to the Holy Spirit in the sense that, should God be so inclined, he has an open invitation to instill in me faith. But so far, God has not chosen to do this, and I have no reason to expect that he ever will. I certainly have not control over whether or not he does. So, in what way can my free will determine whether I go to hell or not?

19

Tyrrell

You, sir or madam, are one beautiful person!

As an evolutionist, I have no trouble understanding that the time frame of the universe occupied by homo sapiens, let alone the time frame of one man’s life, is but a flash in the pan. It is the endurance of my measly life that seems to last forever. As a chess player, I have no trouble appreciating a finished game as an instructive and artful lesson. It is the struggle of a game in progress that tests my patience.

My faith was a looooooong time coming for me, but when it came, it was as though it had always been there. Your earthly experience is fleeting enough. Your open heart will see God’s Spirit sooner or later, either within the next seventy-so years, or else when you die and meet Him face to face. With your open heart and loving Spirit, you will recognize Him when you see Him as that which had been in your heart all along. Love.

Different people wait for different things. Glitch waits for God to force him to believe. Buckner waits for God to do some genie-type magic. Me, I just waited to be loved. And remember that, on the morning of my conversion, I looked at things just like you do. “When, oh, when?” I wondered. Little did I know that that was the day I would find out.

“You never know what’s around the corner.” — Lib’s sainted mother.

Phlosphr

You’re right. Jesus said that if — big IF — He were to judge us, His judgment would be right and true in every respect. But, says He, He does not judge us at all. Instead, we judge ourselves by His Truth.

Buckner

A miracle is no proof. Show me any miracle, and I can rationalize a natural way it might have happened.

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Something that has been implied by a few, but not explicitly said, is the thing with faith. The way it goes, usually, at least from the Christian perspective (OK, my perspective), is that you start off searching, wondering, open to ideas. You don’t believe yet. But if you exercise a little faith (as the mustard seed, as Jesus said), then God starts helping you along with the influence of the Holy Spirit. You have to be watching for it, but it’s there when you look. Your faith gets confirmed by the Spirit. Then you grow a little more, exercise a little more faith, and feel more of the Holy Spirit’s influence.

You’re not just believing by an ‘act of will,’ or repeating empty phrases like a mantra to yourself to make yourself do something you can’t do. You put forth some effort, and God helps you along. But you do have to be willing to listen to Him. (Well, usually–I’ve known some people who were practically bonked on the head by the Spirit, too.)

Miracles aren’t proof. They don’t last long, and it doesn’t take too long before people forget about them and start thinking of other explanations. Miracles are nice, but it says in scripture that you don’t get them for the asking as proof. The Holy Spirit’s influence is proof. And for that, you usually have to be willing to listen, searching, whatever. After all, God has given you complete free will, and you can choose what you want to do every step of the way. He’s not going to force you.

I hope this was clear and not too muddles.