Then what was the point of that big thick book full of alleged miracles?
It seems to me that this has turned into a debate on whether God exists, or whether Christianity is good, or maybe even on Christian doctrine. (Do we go to hell for our sins, or for our lack of belief?) Maybe I’m guilty of trying to hijack this thread because the question is of such great interest to me personally, but I thought the point of the OP was that it isn’t reasonable for God to punish those who ** cannot** believe. I don’t know how many I speak for when I say this, but I really can’t make myself believe in Santa Claus, nor can I make myself believe in the Christian God.
Can anyone who believes give any evidence that you could, if you wanted to, ** not** believe? If you can really choose your beliefs, then please show me how you can take a proposition that you believe to be true, and then ** choose** to believe that it is untrue, or start with a proposition that you do not believe to be true, and make yourself believe that it is true.
Of course many philosophers have argued that free will doesn’t exist. I don’t make that claim, but I suspect that the freedom of our will is limited. I can choose whether I do good deeds or bad. I can choose to “go along with” an idea. I can even choose to trust people or distrust them, to an extent. But I cannot choose to believe that God exists when I really and truly believe that he doesn’t. Again, I don’t * refuse* to believe, but belief is not something I can flex like a muscle. If I’m wrong, please give me an example. I’m open to being proven wrong; it has happened before.
Just wanted to add that I did, for a long time, try to pray the prayer that the child’s father prayed in Mark chapter 9: Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. (I always did like that King James English.) But eventually, in the interest of honesty (how can you lie to an omniscient God?), I had to change the prayer: Lord, I don’t believe; help thou mine…wait a minute, who am I talking to?
I really did try to believe.
Buckner
Like any book, a man sees in it whatever he looks for.
Mr. O
I find your analysis to be the most interesting I’ve seen from an atheist. And I agree with you that believing in God is like achieving an erection: it happens when we don’t fixate on the belief itself, but upon the God Who merits it, just as an erection doesn’t happen when we will it, but when we have an experience that merits it.
I can no more not believe than you can believe. But life is a process, and we all have different moral journeys whose experiences do not necessarily intersect, particularly on the same time-line. At any rate, I just wanted you to know that I appreciate your intellectual acumen and honesty.
Ah, but according to the fundamentalists’ viewpoint, in order to be saved, you must accept God and his teachings and his views unconditionally, no matter how loopy it may seem. Which leads to cognitive dissonance such as “God says to love thy neighbor as you love yourself. Oh, and by the way, God hates fags!”
Presuming that there is a god, I find it rather weird that he gives us a brain, but doesn’t want us to use it when it comes to determining if he exists. Almost reminds me of the “no tea” puzzle from Infocom’s Hitchhikers’ Guide to the Galaxy game…
Libertarian-
And I appreciate yours. I’ll even admit that a part of me, the part that grew up with religion, still sometimes wishes I could believe. (Actually, I’m far happier and, I think, more ethical, than when I was a Christian, but Christianity is so much a part of my youth that I miss it sometimes, even though it made me confused and miserable. Weird.)
I’ll admit that it was initially a little lonely and scary to admit that I didn’t believe. My whole worldview was at stake. But when I stopped pretending to believe, almost immediately I started experiencing some things that were unfamiliar to me: happiness! peace of mind! clarity of thought! I’ve grown to like these things.
Still, Christian concepts will always be a part of my mind. I miss God sometimes. It was such an easy way to “explain” everything. Why do children die? God wills it. Why do we have war? God allows it. Why am I so confused all the time? Because I’m trying to reconcile what I’m told to believe with what I experience. I know my experience and my perceptions are flawed, but it really is all I have to work with. If God exists and starts talking to me, then I, like Tyrrell, will probably believe. And I will probably be confused again. But if God is real, then a lifetime of confusion is not such a high price to pay in exchange for heaven. Until that happens, though, I’ll probably continue with my happiness, peace of mind, and clarity of thought.
Mind if I throw in a little humor? “Believing in God is like achieving an erection,” you say. I like that! Yeah, we tend to lose our reason when an erection is telling us what to do! (I know that isn’t what you meant.)
I have to get to work now. Thanks again for all the intelligent replies to Tyrrell’s question. And for the unintelligent ones, well, even atheists can be pretty forgiving.
**Tyrrell McAllister wrote:
One thing I’ve noticed that these evangelists will emphasize is that in Christianity, as opposed to all other major religions, good works have nothing to do with whether you will live forever in paradise.**
One important point to remember is that these people are usually the Fundamentalist type of Christians. While they use the name Christian, they certainly don’t speak for all Christians or all Christian beliefs. This particular point of doctrine has been around since the earliest days of Christianity and has been debated by many people. Don’t let the Fundamentalists convince you that all Christians believe their way.
My “heart” is always open to the Holy Spirit in the sense that, should God be so inclined, he has an open invitation to instill in me faith. But so far, God has not chosen to do this, and I have no reason to expect that he ever will.
Part or the problem might be you’re talking to the wrong Deity. Try checking out some of the Others. You do have free will in the matter. 
RJung
I agree with you about the fundamentalists who, unfortunately, are to be found in every religion, and in atheism, too. (See the rantings of Dani Filth above.)
But I didn’t say that God didn’t want us to use our brain to investigage whether he exists. In fact, that is exactly how I came to believe in Him. It is merely that any epistemology must be either circular or arbitrary. For example, deduction depends on acceptance of unprovable axioms as truth. Induction depends on acceptance of general implications from specific ones. Even personal experience depends on the soundness of both immediate and mediate knowledge. It is the tautological nature of reason that assures that, for a man to be reasonable, somewhere along the way he must take a step of faith.
Mr. O
God go with you in your search for truth and peace.
Well, no, not really. If I look in an algebra textbook for the capital of Iowa, I’ll likely be disappointed (unless it comes up in a word problem or something: “If a train leaves Dubuque, and heads towards Des Moines–the state capital of Iowa–at 65 miles an hour…”) If I look in the Iliad for a philosophical defense of the belief in a loving and just monotheistic God, I likely won’t find that either.
I’ve never really looked for anything in particular in the Bible–I just read it (well, not all the way through, cover to cover), and I see what I see.
Exactly so! You put it much better than I did! When a man looks at a book, he sees what he sees.
Hello Again, Here is a quick quote from I book I rather like. [and have for many years] it is an interesting peice for this topic.
“And he said unto them, ‘If a man told God that he wanted most of all to help the suffering world, no matter the price to himself, and God answered and told him what he must do, should the man do as he is told?’ 'Of course, master” cried the many. “It should be a pleasure for him to suffer the tortures of hell itself, should God ask it.”
“No matter what those tortures, nor how difficult the task?”
“Honor to be hanged, glory to be nailed to a tree and burned, if so be that God has asked,” said They.
“And what would you do,” the master said unto the multitude, “if God spoke directly to your face and said, ‘I COMMAND THAT YOU BE HAPPY IN THE WORLD, AS LONG AS YOU LIVE,’ what would you do then?..”
The multitude was silent.
I would say this is not only a good peice for this thread, but for all people of faith. But as for this thread. You take what you will from this Post.
by the way, this quote was from a man who is mortal, and of no particular faith.
Phlosphr -
“Illusions” by Richard Bach, one of my top shelf books since I was a kid. When I was a Christian I thought that Richard Bach might be a messiah! He certainly has credentials as good as any being offered up.
One can avoid all these touchy disagreements by simply doing what I have done-- renounce your sins and worship the only one true God-- Apollo!!
With Apollo you never need ask for proof of His existence-- for it is there for us every day. As He rides his fiery chariot across the sky each day, we are rewarded with the light of His Sun.
BTW- this all makes sense to y’all right?? I mean-- it’s just as sensible as believing in some 2,000 year old white dude with a beard who did magic tricks with bread and water, right??
Hi Tyrrell
I agree wholeheartedly with the first point… In my case, it took 48 years for me to meet him and to understand his message. I had been somwehow ‘looking the other way’.
However, when I met him, I knew it and it changed me… profoundly. The new things that I believed, I believed readily. I didn’t have to fight it. It just seemed suddenly to be so obvious. The most natural thing.
Even the acceptance of my sinful nature was made easier when I understood how I was sinful and why I was sinful.
I like the line from earlier in your thread about in effect, becoming a new person… you see, that is exactly what I became… in an instant.
I suddenly believed lots of new things and realised that lots of other beliefs, that I had held dear for many years, would almost certainly change too… as he taught me the truth.
If, as you say, you have an open ‘heart’ and would be willing to accept new beliefs if The Lord would demonstrate them to you, then all I can say is hang-in there. No-one can know when he will make himself known to you, or how… but there is no doubt in my mind that he very much wants a loving relationship with you as he does with all of us. He will move when you are ready and he has a plan for that.
As to your beliefs, don’t worry about them. When you meet him you will have no problem. They will change as he guides you in his ways and you will maybe look back at some future date and realise just how much you have become a new person (born again) complete with your new beliefs.
May the Lord be with you…
Hi Freyr
I’m not sure what you mean by Fundamentalist Christians. I have to admit (I think I mentioned earlier in the thread) that my views of Christians and Christianity have changed dramatically since I became a Christian.
I now believe that the gospels are the inspired words of God. Therefore, I study them to understand them. Through this understanding my ‘new’ beliefs form.
The gospels make it clear that I am born with a sinful nature and that I will die with that same sinful nature… whatever I do! But I can nevertheless be saved.
By accepting Jesus christ as my saviour, my sins are washed away. The appearance is that I never sinned. So, why don’t I just ‘accept’ Jesus but keep on living as I did (sinfully). Well, because the Lord cannot be fooled. He knows what’s in my heart.
If I have truly accepted him, I will want to walk his path. I do not do it because I ‘have to’ but because I ‘want to’.
If I am a wealthy Christian, I might use my wealth for the Lord’s work. If I am a poor Christian I cannot use wealth and so I must do the Lord’s work in other ways. In the Lord’s eyes, we are both saved providing we have repented our sins, have accepted the Lord Jesus as our Saviour and are endeavouring to do his will and not ours.
But what if I am rich and not a Christian? I suspect many wealthy people use their wealth in very positive ways. Charitable donations, philanthropy, gifting etc. are not exclusively the property of Christians. And so, what is the status of ‘giving’ non-Christian?
The gospels tell us that there is only one way back to the Father… through Jesus Christ. In other words, no amount of wealth can buy me a place in eternity. I am given eternal life, by the Lord, by his grace in return for truly repenting my sins, accepting Jesus as my Saviour and endeavouring to do the Lord’s will and not my own.
In other words, to answer Tyrrell’s point, good works are what Christians aspire to do because they are Christisns and it is the Lord’s will. But good works without salvation will not buy you into eternity.
I’m not sure if this makes me a fundamentalist or not but it seems like a fair deal to me.
I agree that this (for the most part) has been a very fine, productive, and reasonable debate.
Sorry to hijack this, but can you help me? I need a phrase translated: “I don’t think much, therefore I might not be.”
My guess is something close to “non multum cogito, ergo …” How would you do “might not be”? [something] non sum? Or am I completely off base? (no surprise there!)
[end hijack]
**Walor wrote:
I’m not sure what you mean by Fundamentalist Christians. I have to admit (I think I mentioned earlier in the thread) that my views of Christians and Christianity have changed dramatically since I became a Christian.
I now believe that the gospels are the inspired words of God. Therefore, I study them to understand them. Through this understanding my ‘new’ beliefs form.**
I define Fundamentalist Christian as the sect(s) of Chrisitianity that take a literalist interpretation of the Bible, usually the KJV version. They believe this is the only way to properly interpret and understand it.
As I mentioned before, there are many varieties of Christianity and not all of them take this approach. Try chatting with some of the other self-professed Christians on the board, like Jodi, Polycarp, Libertarian, Trisk and you’ll get an idea of what I’m talking about.
Of course there really is no single
“literalist interpretation” of any book. And besides the natural interpretation differences that will happen from individual to individual, they also overlay this with their own beliefs. Even the smallest difference in belief is significant when centered around a book proported to be the infallible word of a deity. Thus we end up not with a millions of seperate religions essentially.
Essentially, I agree with Gravity Dancer. The bane of philosophy has always been the rendering of immediate knowledge into mediate knowledge. No solution that satisfies everyone has ever been found.