I agree with the OP. To me, it makes no sence at all to say that your after-death destiny (heaven or hell) depends on holding or not holding the right belefs; that no matter how good a life you lead, if you don’t have the right set of beliefs, you suffer in hell for all eternity.
This “born sinful” concept makes no sence to me, either. We have a default setting (set by god, presumably) that makes us all bad people? And we can become good people only by believing the right things? Good behavior counts for nothing?
Have faith, my friend, my brother. Oh, wait, that was the problem, wasn’t it!
First and foremost, please be assured that God does not expect you to pick the winner in the ninth race as a part of your initiation into the mysteries that assure salvation. Having faith, and believing in Him is the key, yes. However that doesn’t mean that that comes first, and all else must await your decision.
Love comes first. Before Moses was, Love is. He will be there when you love, when you are loved, and He will become known to you. Your description of Christianity (which does seem to be one that is often presented, or perceived in America) is like some big club, with exclusive membership requirements, and tests, and initiations. That set of beliefs is not my faith, although I am a Christian.
Do this, please. Decide if it is a good idea to at least try faithfully to make love your choice in how you relate to each soul you meet in the world. Now this is no trivial exercise, there are annoying bastards out there by the thousands, and you are deciding to at least attempt to love these jerks. Don’t judge this value system by some mythical reward offered in eternity. Decide to do it because Love itself is worth the choice, the effort, and the dedication of your life. If love is not the right thing for that reason, it isn’t what you believe in, it is what you are willing to suffer.
We could be wrong, in the intellectual sense of wrong, you and I, if we dedicate ourselves to making love exist in the world for no more reason that that we wish it to be so. In that case, we will have died living foolish lives, worth nothing but to those few souls we were able to love. I can accept that. Can you?
By the way, the faith part comes later, on its own. Jesus is. We are not wrong. Love is God, God is love, Jesus is a person, and the heaven part is His job, not ours. Good thing, too, you would hate a heaven I designed.
Tris
“RITUALISM, n. A Dutch Garden of God where He may walk in rectilinear freedom, keeping off the grass.” ~ Ambrose Bierce, The Devil’s Dictionary ~
No need for an apology Lib, I was not insulted in the slightest. Rather the opposite really. I understand that although I do my best to understand myself sometimes in order to do that you need to use another person’s impressions. I have respect for yours.
If you take the time to read the Gospels, you will notice that Jesus never used coercion. He preached about love, tolerance, and faith in God, but then he walked away and left people to make their own decisions.
You can’t base your understanding of Christianity on the interpretation of some misguided humans. Some of the truly awful people in this world are people who are prominent church members and wrap themselves in the pious cloak of a “true believer”. On the other hand, there are some really beautiful souls in this world that do not feel the need for a weekly, organized church experience.
That brings me to “good works”. The concept that “good works” ALONE will not get you into heaven is based on the belief that you can’t “bribe” God. However, and this is important to point out, “good works” naturally flow from a person with a healthy spirit. They are a welcome reflection of, if I may use a generic term, “goodness”.
We all have to find our own paths in life. Some worship God, some Buddha, some Allah, and some worship no God and believe in nothing. Each to their own, I say. However; and this is not a value judgment but simply my impression, I am mystified as to how anyone can go through life and learn about this awesome universe and not get the sense that there is so much more to existence than just what we experience with our five senses.
Personally, within my heart and mind, I KNOW that there are other planes of reality and other dimensions. I can’t prove it, but it is just something I KNOW.
I am in the same boat with you, my friend. I don’t think you can choose what to believe, you either do or you don’t. I mean, can you choose to believe in something that you find laughable right now?(not that I’m saying any religion is laughable) If there is a way, I haven’t found it yet.
I do not believe in God. It’s not that I don’t want to. To a large degree, I envy that belief in others. They seem to get a lot out of it. A belief in a loving God seems like a good thing. But I don’t have it and I don’t know why.
In ‘Sgt York’, Gary Cooper said ‘I don’t believe a man can find religion, I think religion has to find the man’, or words to that effect. Maybe that’s true. Maybe if I stay open to it, that belief will come to me eventually.
I was raised a Catholic, but started to have serious doubts about the whole God business before I was even ten years old. I’ve been what I like to think of as a “reasonable atheist” ever since. I look around the miniscule portion of the universe that I have access to, and, try as I might, I see no signs of anything godlike. I try to be a good person on my own terms, and aside from temporary lapses I think I succeed. As far as the Christian God is concerned, even if he appeared before me I would have to reject him on moral grounds. I guess I’m hell bound, and will just have to make the most of it. To all the other atheists in this thread, see you there, and we’ll have a big party.
I’m sorry that I haven’t read all of the thread yet, but when I saw this I just had to reply.
Rjung - I completely agree (on a certain level). That is, I agree with the complete rejection of an attitude of mindlessly accepting anything. One of the things that my g-friend and I argue about sometimes is my insistence on examining things with a microscope.
However (and I have a feeling others have said this, but I just have to chime in), I think you have accepted a false presentation of Christ’s attitude.
There’s the old and often made point: If God gave me a brain, I expect He intended me to use it.
Paul commends the Bereans for critically examining the scriptures.
I have a broad pet point that maybe I’ll form into another thread soon: The highest goal is the honest and earnest search for truth. I believe that will lead one toward Christ. BUT… if you can prove to me that Christianity is not true, I’m outta here.
The problem is that most of the “proofs” tend to attack the stupid things that Christians do or say, not Christ. They are not the same thing.
So… Please don’t turn off your brain. However, many, many people don’t seem to realize that having bad emotional reactions to something to the point where they are not willing to actually listen or examine critically is essentially turning off their brains.
More of my incredible analysis (come one, people, you know I’m right!! Admit it, or I will condemn you to working on naught but 486 chips and b/w monitors!!)
This is exaclty what I’m talking about. I don’t know how many times it’s been said on these boards that the unfortunate examples of Christians do not necessarily reflect the attitudes of Christ. My flipping you off in traffic does not necessarily reflect that attitudes of my mother.
To try to get back to the OP, it’s true, you can’t really make yourself believe anything. You can’t make yourself fall in love with someone you don’t find lovely. BUT… if feel that spiritual and eternal questions are important, then they merit close and careful examination.
I truly feel that people who investigate Christ with a truly open mind, always moving closer to the things that ring true to their consciences, will find Him. If that particulary church gives you a vibe that rings hollow for you, try another one. The fact is that people are a sad substitute for God on every level.
Bravo, S.! I just have to mention the caveat that you may have to seek it out in order to get found.
On his “testimony tape,” John Wimber, “founder” of the Vineyard churches, talks and jokes about whether he found God and committed himself to Him, or vice versa. It seems that when presented with a hint of God, he pursued it, and in the end it became a moot (academic) point as to who found whom.
But I do agree that it seems that we believe what is believable to us. We do not just make an exercise of will, or a leap of blind faith. (That last one is the favorite of the pop writers like those in Newsweek, and it burns me up every time they portray religion as a matter of “faith”, because their version seems to imply that I’ve decided to believe something because I just want to.)
I can’t prove that Christianity is not true, just as you cannot prove that it is true.
I can say, however, that the Christian argument is about as convincing as that of any other religion – lots of speculation, some musty oral myths, no real evidence, and truckloads of “trust me.” Why should I pick Christianity over another? Being Baptist won’t help me if God turns out to be Yiddish, y’know?
At least my being an atheist is supported by reason and logic, which is something I can rely on.
Yeah, but if you ask the Christians who do/say those stupid things, they’ll insist that their actions are sanctioned by God/Christ/Casper the Holy Ghost. I have yet to meet a gung-ho fundamentalist who insist that his actions aren’t directed by his religion.
The problem with this argument is that it merely resorts back to the “My logic and conclusions are better than yours” assertion.
Yeah, well T. McVeigh was motivated by “a love of freedom.” Which proves to me that I don’t like freedom. Down with freedom!!
BTW, when I say prove, I don’t mean that it can be proved either way in a formal-debate-kind-of-way. What many people seem to not consider is that there might be a category of personal revelation. When you don’t think there is a spirit in people, then you out-of-hand reject the idea that someone might have a spiritual revelation that tips the scales for him/her.
I do not just say, “Trust me.” I don’t know how to make it any clearer. Please re-read my previous posts. I think if you investigate God with a receptivity to things that He will put in your life, you will get a personal revelation. It will not convince anyone else by pure logic.
It might in some ways be compared to how you know that you’re in love. It’s not provable, but it doesn’t mean you don’t know it.
I really struggled with this ‘sinful’ bit before I became a Christian.
My understanding now is this… ‘mankind/humankind’ chose to follow their own plans rather than God’s plans (original sin). In other words, God did not make us sinful… we did it to ourselves.
Now, we are all sinful by nature and so we sin. How we sin is different for all of us. Some commit murder. Some steal. Some commit adultery. Some worship other Gods or idols.
The gospels tell us that are essentially ten ways of committing sin (Moses got that nmessage on tablets of stone). You could also argue that Jesus gave us an eleventh commandment… to love one another.
When I studied the ten commandments I had to admit that I couldn’t say that I’d got a clean sheet. I was not without sin. I know that I had not committed murder, or held up a bank. I figured that I was a ‘nice’ person and had a record of doing ‘kind’ things for people.
However, I was not sinless. Check it out for yourself. It’s not easy as you go down the list and realise that some things that you have done, or thought, or said fall short of God’s original plan for us.
My view is that one flaw, one occasion, one transgression… makes me sinful. It’s like pregnancy. I can’t be a little bit pregnant. I either am or I’m not. Sames goes for sinfulness.
Of course, the more I study the scriptures, the more acutley aware I become of my shortcomings. It gets worse and not better in that sense. Another example for Tyrrell (OP) of my beliefs changing, through concious choice.
The first step I had to take requires bottle. It is the admission of my sinful nature and my repentance (for me privately at first and then more publically).
I now actively endeavour to avoid sinful deeds, words and thoughts… and that’s not easy because I now recognise some things that I did for 48 years as sinful. Yet when I did them, they just seemed like regular things that everyone did.
I continue with my ‘acts of kindness’ too. But not to gain a place in eternity… I do them because it’s God’s will. My place in eternity is a gift… I did earn it by being kind. The gift is available to everyone, regardless of the sins committed. And the gift was given to me because I:
Repent of my sins
Accept Jesus Christ as my saviour
Endeavour to do the Lord’s will and not my own
An earlier post suggested that such a choice required a lobotomy or a mindless acceptance of God’s word without question.
I have not had that operation. I view myself as an intelligent, rational, thinking person.
I also question God’s word as did Jesus’ disciples. So far, every time I have asked questions, I have found myself developing an even deeper understanding of the Lord and his ways. He is without doubt, the best teacher I ever had.
He has helped me to change so many of my beliefs by teaching things and not by trying to force me to do anything. There are still many questions that I have to ask and I know that when I leave this life, I will not understand everything or have all of the answers… God is definately not through with me yet.
Even with my shortcomings, he loves me, guides me and cares about me. Most important, he accepts me with all of my failings because I have chosen to come back to him. He never went anywhere… he just waited patiently for my return.
I can say, however, that the Christian argument is about as convincing as that of any other religion – lots of speculation, some musty oral myths, no real evidence, and truckloads of “trust me.” Why should I pick Christianity over another? Being Baptist won’t help me if God turns out to be Yiddish, y’know?
At least my being an atheist is supported by reason and logic, which is something I can rely on.***
Hi rjung
I still don’t fully understand the all of the differences between the various types of Christain churches (Pentecostal, Methodist, Anglicans etc. etc.). I’m personally a Baptist… I’m just very comfortable at my church and with my church. As I understand it, the important thing is that all Christians have three things in common:
They have repented of their sins
Accept Christ as their saviour
Endeavour to do the Lord’s will and not their own
I have emphasised the word Christians because I believe there is a difference between being a Christain and being religious. (This is something I now believe that I didn’t before I gave my life back to the Lord. Presented with the idea, I chose to believe it). I’m a Christian… not religious.
In that sense, it doesn’t matter which church you attend if you are truly a Christian - you are a ‘son of God’.
The logic and reasoning bit is interesting too. There is so much to which I do not yet have the answers. I’ve only had four years so far to study the most important issue I’ve ever confronted. I’ve also got 48 years worth of stuff to unravel and unpack. This is intriguiging though.
If you get the chance, you may wish to read Frank Morrison’s book, ‘Who moved the stone’. In a nutshell, Frank is a scientist who set out to prove that the Christain story was seriously flawed. In particular, he wanted to prove that Jesus’ resurrection could not have happened… it was magic tricks, hearsay, duplicity etc.
His scientifically based study, in which employed logic and reasoning led him to conclude the reverse. In fact, so convincing was the evidence for him that he became a Christian. It’s a good read.
Logic and reasoning had led him to believe that it couldn’t be true, but after investigation (and more evidence) it proved the opposite… all I would say is, we must all be careful what we believe.
This quote is an interesting one,
*’ We are faced with this frightening alternative. The man we are talking about (Jesus) was, and is, just what he said or else a lunatic or something worse. Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic or a fiend; and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God. God has landed on this enemy occupied world in human form.’
I guess then that I am and I’m not… don’t you just wish sometimes that things were straight-forward.
I believe that the scriptures are the inspired words of God. (Fundamentalist I guess?).
I personally study from the NIV Bible and not the KJV. There are so many versions of the scriptures.(??)
One thing that I have learned is that most of the scriptures can lose something in the translation. Hence, literal translation may sometimes be too simplistic an interpretation of God’s word. An element of interpretation and understanding are required (Non-fundamentalist?)
There are in excess of 5,000 Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 other manuscripts realting to the New Testament alone.
There are Greek words for which there is no easy ‘English equivalent’. Also, some words carry slightly different meanings according to context - a good one is love. I understand that there several different definitions of that word in Greek.
As a matter of interest, there are only 10 original manuscripts relating to Caesar’s Gallic Wars. This is an element of history that appears to be quite freely accepted as fact. Also, they 650 years older than the New Testament manuscripts of which > 24,000 exist. I find that interesting as well as daunting… that’s a lot of studying to do!
In my own case, as well as reading the scriptures and discussing the scriptures with more mature Christians, I rely heavily on my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ for interpretation and understanding.
I pray regularly that he will help me to understand his word and that throught the Holy Spirit I may learn the truth, rather than rely upon my own, limited ability to interpret his pretty deep and profound wisdom. Curiously, just when I think I understand something fully, he helps me to see that there is still so much more to understand… it’s really very humbling as an experience.
Yes, I understand it’s very popular among evangelical Christians, who love to wave it around as “proof” that God’s existence is so overwhelming that even a devout skeptic had to confront The Truth™.
Unfortunatly, the accounts are usually wildly inaccurate. Morrison was not a scientist by any means; he was, at various times, a lawyer and a journalist – not that there’s anything wrong with those jobs, but “scientist” he wasn’t. And his “scientifically based study” was little more than unproven assertions, backed up with logical fallacies to “support” his point. Many non-Christian scholars who read Who Moved The Stone? are convinced that Morrison was already predisposed towards Christianity to begin with, and wrote his “conversion story” to reel in enthusiastic readers such as yourself.
In fact, stories of “converted skeptics” often gloss over their drawbacks; C.S. Lewis, for instance, never did any systematic studying of the Bible, recognized that the book of Genesis had its roots in pagan stories, and willfully admitted that the Bible is studded with errors.
Since you recommended Morrison, allow me to return the favor – check out Robert Price’s Beyond Born Again in rebuttal. Here’s an apt excerpt:
Your points were well stated in your attempt to answer this difficult question. Instead of having a belief in God you suggest we have a trust instead. This poses the same problem as believing in something. You cannot make yourself trust someone or something either. You either trust somebody or you do not. It is as simple as that.
How can Christians believe as they do? The fact of whether you believe or trust in someone boils down to luck. You go to heaven if your happen to be lucky enough to believe in God. If your unfortunate and do not believe you end up in Hell. I guess all the Buddhist are in for a big surprise!!The most disturbing thing about this is that Christians seem comfortable with this belief. I have spoke to many Christians who think it is perfectly logical to believe someone is going to hell because they do not accept Jesus Christ as the savior. Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to Christians the only mistake Hitler made was not accepting Jesus as his savior. To make the example even more absurd if Hilter truly accepted Jesus as his savior he would be ascend into Heaven. While someone like Gandhi, to spite all of his humanatarian accomplishments would suffer in Hell. What kind of logic is this? It tells me that none of our actions on this planet mean anything. The only important fact is that you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Scary!!!
I will close in saying that we would be better off if more individuals lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of worrying about who is and is not going to Hell.
Your points were well stated in your attempt to answer this difficult question. Instead of having a belief in God you suggest we have a trust. This poses the same problem as believing in something. You cannot make yourself trust someone or something either. You either trust somebody or you do not. It is as simple as that.
How can Christians believe as they do? The fact of whether you believe or trust in someone boils down to luck. You go to heaven if your happen to be lucky enough to believe in God. If your unfortunate and do not believe you end up in Hell. I guess all the Buddhist are in for a big surprise!!The most disturbing thing about this is that Christians seem comfortable with this belief. I have spoke to many Christians who think it is perfectly logical to believe someone is going to hell because they do not accept Jesus Christ as the savior. Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to Christians the only mistake Hitler made was not accepting Jesus as his savior. To make the example even more absurd,if Hilter truly accepted Jesus as his savior he would ascend into Heaven. While someone like Gandhi, to spite all of his humanatarian accomplishments, would suffer in Hell. What kind of logic is this? It tells me that none of our actions on this planet mean anything. The only important fact is that you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Scary!!!
I will close in saying that we would be better off if more individuals lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of worrying about who is and is not going to Hell.
You’re right. All I meant to do was clarify what belief is. I didn’t mean to suggest that the clarification made belief any easier or more difficult.
Careful here, my wise friend. Belief in something a man calls “God” is not necessarily belief in God.
Bullseye.
Same caution as above. I’ll explain in a bit.
I would call it “cold”.
Utterly.
And here is where your beautiful wisdom shines through! I will trust your wisdom to interpret this:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” — Matthew 7:21-23
Given that God is Love, what do you think Jesus meant?
I guess then that I am and I’m not… don’t you just wish sometimes that things were straight-forward.
I believe that the scriptures are the inspired words of God. (Fundamentalist I guess?).**
The point I’m trying to make, Walor, is that there are many variations of Christianity. The OP, in his encounter with the evangelical/fundamentalists on his campus ran into one type, a small yet vocal group. There are many more who believe many different things, yet they all fall under the heading of Christian. Nor do the evangelical/fundamentalists speak for all of Christianity. I had this vigorously pointed out to me in another thread regarding homosexuality and Christianity.
The OP needs to do a lot of reading about the various denominations of Christianity, especially regarding their history and theology in order to understand how many different way Christians view this; don’t rely on one small yet vocal group.
And not all religions view Deity in the same way that Christians do. If he finds the Christian viewpoint distasteful, he could look at others and see how they view it.