I never mind being reminded that I am a lady, i.e. one classy broad, so I am in agreement with Davebear and Queen Tonya. I get around the “guys” thing by saying, for example, “Hi, guys and guy-ettes”. Obviously a lighthearted way to acknowledge everyone in hearing distance, and no one has told me it offended them yet.
And, having been honored with an Award of Arms by the Kingdom of the West, I am a Lady. Specifically: Lady Kallessa Panthera, at your service. (SCA) But I’m a classy broad in real lfe, too.
To answer the OP-- when I hear “Ladies…”, I think, “aha that includes me”. Neutral alternatives? How about “Friends” (provided you know the people well enough) or “People”? “Y’all” is preferable to “you guys” if you mean to include the women in the group.
Around these parts, “Ma’am” is a proper way to address an adult female regardless of age or marital status; it is the feminine complement of “Sir”. Young women are often addressed as “Miss” if the speaker doesn’t know the woman, although it’s kind of awkward when someone calls me–a middle-aged married woman–“Miss”. It comes across as less respectful than “Ma’am”.
DO NOT say “Excuse me, Miss… uh, I mean Ma’am”. That’s like saying “At first I thought you were a young lady, but then I got a closer look, and you do look kinda old.”
One regional custom is to address a woman older than yourself whom you know well as “Miss Maggie” or “Miss Bess” (for example), and this is respectful.
I found getting called ‘lady’ at the age of 14 (as in mothers telling their children ‘let the nice lady past, Kevin’) was a bit odd, but it might just have been because my uniform marked me as someone who attended Ladies’ College (yep, that was the name of my school). Now I’m practically over the hill at 19, ‘lady’ isn’t so odd, although I prefer ‘love’. Doesn’t ‘Excuse me, love’ sound much nicer and less formal than ‘Excuse me, lady’? I think ‘love’ is more of a northern English thing though, as I definitely don’t hear it as much when I’m back home.
If it’s a mixed group addressed as “ladies and gentlemen” then I don’t mind; it’s a bit archaic but it applies to everyone.
On the other hand, if we’re just addressed as “ladies” then it’s either tongue-in-cheek or socially backward.
And most of the SMDB threads (other than this one) that have “Ladies” in the title are about sexual preferences, boob size, menstruation, etc., so I don’t know what the inclusion of “ladies” is supposed to mean in that case.
I’m 46 and the guard at work refers to me as “young lady.” I guess he’s just trying to be nice but it sounds a bit weird to me.
I think the only time “lady” would be likely to bother me at all would be if the word were being used in a less than sincere way. For instance, something like “That’s enough, ladies!” to women who are arguing suggests that they are not behaving in a suitably feminine manner and need to be reminded of their proper social role. It’s certainly not the worst thing you could say in such a situation, but it’s a little demeaning if you think about it.
Similarly, I’m not fond of “ladies” in the context ratatoskK mentions above, the “Hey ladies, how big are your boobs?” sort of thing. It seems like a weak attempt to make personal, perhaps even rude or obscene, questions sound respectable by tacking on an honorific. “Don’t get offended, I called you a lady after all! Now seriously, how big are your boobs?” But again, not really a big deal. Mildly annoying at worst.
I don’t like it, but probably for different reasons than most. I go to a very old, very very pretentious independent all-girls school. Can you see where this going?
Anyway. Some of the teachers just yell, “Girls!” and I don’t mind that, I figure that’s normal, but a lot of them, the older and more conservative ones particularly, call us “Ladies.” As in, “Ladies, could we have some hush, please.” “Ladies, the homework is in for Tuesday.” “Ladies, stop packing up, this lesson isn’t over.”
I hate it. In my horrible school uniform and ancient surroundings, it makes me feel like such an anachronism.
Then there’s my Physics teacher, who adresses everyone, whether aged eleven or eighteen, as “Children!” but we won’t go down that road.
When I taught at an all-girls school, I told my students that, out of respect for their age and maturity, I would refer to them as ladies (just as I referred to the the students down the block at the all-boys school as gentlemen–a misnomer ifever there was one). However, if they were not acting their age, I referred to them as girls or, on very rare occasions, children. It was not that they were not acting “lady-like” as in the old-fashion, demure way–I certainly believe that women have the right to be rude, crude and socially unacceptable when the occasion arises (for example, they could be loud and talk about the time they farted while on a date if we were having an end of the year party, but not while they were taking a test, and there was no need for the 11th graders to giggle at the men in tights in the history film, nor was it too much to ask of 9th graders that they settle down when I called for attention). Because I expained why I used the term, and then used it sparingly, they hated being called girls, and it was usually enough the get them to police themselves without me having to yell.
The student’s at the boys school didn’t seem to care what you called them–they were just obnoxious. To this day, I can see benefits to an all female high school, but a boys school just delays the onset of maturity for years and years.
I have no problem with either “ladies” or “ma’am.” “Ladies” is the female form of “gentlemen” and “ma’am” the female form of “sir.” I am slightly offended by the idea that the female form of these addresses is somehow inferior (too stuffy or too old-fashioned) to the male form. If “gentlemen” or “sir” isn’t stuffy or old-fashioned, then neither is “ladies” or “ma’am.”
I’m not automatically offended by it, but the context it’s used in sometimes tells you quite a lot about the person saying it, or the event you’re participating in.
“Gals” is a good substitute for more casual occasions. My group of friends often uses “hey, people” as a way of getting the attention of a mixed bunch. It sounds strange at first but after a while you barely notice it.
I do have an irrational hatred of the phrase “Ladies Night” used by a pub or bar. It seems to me like a way of saying “Our bar is usually full of uncouth, sexist pigs of the male species, but things are quiet on this night and we don’t want to lose money so we’ll sweep up the mess and serve cheap cocktails and wine, and maybe hire a stripper, in an attempt to make women feel more comfortable while the real drinkers are gone.” It’s just so… second-rate. I refuse to go anywhere that advertises a Ladies Night, but maybe it’s just me…
I can’t stand it when used in an attempt to disguise the fact that the speaker is being rude.
Walloon, I have a friend who calls me “gal.” I kind of like it.
As a collective term, I prefer “women-folk.” Just cracks me up.
I don’t have a real problem with “lady.” But it sounds a bit formal. I don’t mind “girls”, “babes”, or “chicks” either, as long as it isn’t being disrespectful.
Compared to the alternatives, I prefer “ladies”.
I don’t mind “madam”, hate “miss”, and would probably hit someone if they called me “ma’am”.
Generally, I’d find it more objectionable to be addressed as “Madam” than not to be addressed directly at all, I’m with voguevixen on that one.
i’m surprised no one has totally dug out the roots of ignorance on this one yet. from my HS years of French I and II:
the terms of address for men and women are Monsieur, Madame and Mademoiselle (abbrv M., Mme. and Mlle.). “Monsieur” is a corruption of “Mon Siegneur”, translated as My Lord, originally an honorific given to nobility, currently used as a generic male honorific. (pronounced “M’sieur” in common usage.) “Madame” was originally “Ma Dame”, literally My Lady – also an honorific given to nobility, currently used to address a married woman, or sometimes a woman due additional respect (due perhaps to age or position, as in “Madam Prime Minister”). (now most often pronounced “Ma’am” in general society.) “Mademoiselle” was “Ma Demoiselle”, or My young Lady, again (you guessed it) an honorific to unmarried ladies of high birth. (commonly pronounce as “Mam’selle” nowadays.)
i’ll spare you the pluralizations. however, these forms of address go back several centuries.
oh, yes – regarding the OP. we had this same discussion with a female friend many years back, during the fallout of the Women’s Movement. based on my language background and certain stories i liked to read, i decided i much preferred being referred to as a lady, rather than just as a woman. however, i didn’t put the “ladylike” connotations on it. instead, i preferred to think that a Lady was someone of some standing, possibly able to wield a certain amount of power not necessarily available to just the average person in society at large. that certainly give it a marked appeal to me.
I don’t like the term “ladies” in any context where “gentlemen” wouldn’t sound right. The problem is that there is no word meaning “Adult Female People” with no other connotations (re: class or manners or brothels etc) that is comparable to “guys.” I prefer re-defining “guys” to be gender-neutral, than taking words like “ladies” or “gals” and expecting people to disregard the connotations.
Sometimes I’m just not a freakin’ LADY and I resent suggestions that I ought to be.
I dunno, it’s just used so rarely that it catches your attention in a way that “guy” doesn’t. Shall we put it to the group? How do these sentences sound?
“Hey, gals!”
“Yah, that Jenny, she’s a good gal.”
“So I went out with the gals last night …”
“I know this gal who …”
Just sounds silly to me, but that may just be me. And using “gal” doesn’t address the gender-specifity - what do you call a group of people of mixed gender? “Guys and gals” is too cumbersome. If “guys” meant “gender-non-specific people” there wouldn’t be a problem.
Not a big deal, really. I don’t think there’s any real solution.
The situation that led to the OP was the use of “ladies” in a thread title. I took it from context that the intended meaning was “Hey, female people on the board, yo, in here”. I did not find the questions to be unduly abrasive or intrusive (by the rather astonishingly familiar and blunt standards of the board ;0), — it wasn’t quite “show me your tits”, that is —_but the inquiry did pertain to matters and practices erogenous. (Hey ladies, when you *&$%, do you get lots of %@# in your **@# or do you keep it out?)
It struck me wrong (the “ladies” thing, not the thread or its inquisitiveness) and it reminded me of settings where “ladies” as a form of address can sound condescending or sarcastic to me…and that got me wondering in general whether it’s just me.
