So to summarize the thread, the answer to the OP’s general question is “maybe.”
Been mugged 3 times in my life. Everytime it happened, I knew for about 45 seconds that it was coming, only an oblivious idiot in a bad neighborhood can’t tell who is eyeing him up. I made it out 3 times alive with no gun, but one time I got roughed up, and since there were 5 of them (or more I’m not sure) I could’ve easily been killed…
But no matter what any experts say, I will say “OF COURSE” a gun makes you safer in a mugging, unless it’s some stupid hypothetical where they already have a gun aimed at you and you then pull one…of course they will shoot. If you have a gun pulled first to show them you’re not the mark and tell them “Get away from me”, you will be fine.
I would agree with you but I don’t believe that it’s typical for a mugger to actually pull the gun first. In my multiple times of being mugged, they just claim they have one and you should give them the money…not even hands in their pocket ready to go. Then they let YOU go in YOUR own pocket to give them money, which is a perfect opportunity to shoot them.
The only way you can stack the deck against it being safer to carry a gun is if their gun is already trained on you…which in my experience is uncommon (as in hasn’t happened). The reason they don’t pull the gun is so that when they are inevitably caught, they will try to claim they never had a gun during the robbery.
Once on the Redline train in Chicago at 3am going home to the southside, 3 guys came on the train, 2 watchmen and the guy who approached me and demanded money. Having been robbed multiple times I demanded to see his gun before I would give him any money. Even if I had been carrying in this situation I would’ve given him the money because I could tell he wasn’t an evil wild person like some of the other thugs running around, and that the money would satisfy him and let me be. But some muggers truly get a kick out of the power, and with three of them and one of me, if they weren’t satisfied with my meagre money, it would’ve been safer for me to be able to fight back…
It is always safer to carry. Now, SOCIETY wise it is safer for all if there are no guns, I will agree. But putting yourself at disadvantage tactically requires some voodoo to be more safe imo. :dubious:
So you’re advocating shooting the muggers before they actually do anything to you? There’s a legal term for that.
What do you think a mugging is? It is a threat on your life, if you do not give them money. Suppose you don’t have any money on you?
And in the specific paragraph you quoted I went OUT OF MY WAY to say that you pull a gun and say “Get away from me”, do you process?
I was robbed once when I had 7 dollars on me, and the mugger was FURIOUS and kept screaming that I was holding out on him. The only thing that saved me was that I was wearing my Subway sandwiches apron and hat where I had just got off of work…I convinced him I wasn’t holding out because I was poor and worked at Subway.
After that I started keeping “walk around money” on me in case I got robbed. But any person who sits at their computer claiming all muggers are always rational will get a big :rolleyes: from me. Some of them want money, some of them want money AND to hurt you for fun. I fully complied with a group of muggers by emptying my pockets and they got my wallet with money AND an ipod, and for no reason one of them started punching me in the face for fun.
It’s hard to believe, but there really are people who enjoy hurting others the same way some of us play video games.
Also, because a gun is a deadly weapon. There’s no “stun” setting on it. If you are shooting someone, you are shooting them with the intent and goal of ending their lives because you deem it necessary. Leg and arm shots can still be lethal, so at worst, all you will do is give them an injury that will kill them but take much longer to do it than a center-of-mass shot.
I would call it “absolutely not, except in the most contrived circumstances”.
Do you honestly think you can accomplish this? Do you train a draw from your pocket? Do you carry unholstered in a normal pocket?
If you live anywhere near central PA, I will bet you $500 that I can take your gun or stab you with a rubber knife before you put a hole in me 7 of 10 times or better in the situation you describe, using an Airsoft pistol and not assaulting you until I can clearly see it’s a gun in the semi-dark of a streetlight.
You are wrong. You cannot cite a single court case where this has happened in which the robber was not fleeing. If you are pro-gun, stop it, I don’t want you on my side.
I was assuming that when you said you would pull a gun, you intended to shoot the person you were pulling it on. Who, apparently, has done nothing more at this point than just being too close to you.
I wouldn’t have thought an “absolute” answer would have exceptions, but okay…
I don’t have a CCW, but I have plenty of experience shooting. Yes, I do think I can do this because the guy I am thinking of was dividing his attention 50% between me and watching around to see if anyone was coming by.
You are vastly over estimating the abilities of gang members, they can’t actually fight one on one very well.
I have seen these exact demos and I don’t really care WTF you can do, I don’t believe a gang member who doesn’t even have a knife visible can react to me pulling out a gun as opposed to a wallet fast enough to stab me in the dark, while he is watching for cops. Gang members are not martial artists and the type of reaction you are talking about has nothing to do with mugging someone.
edit: didn’t realize you weren’t talking to me here, sorry.
Are you being intentionally dense? When I said “I pull a gun and say ‘Get away from me!’” you thought I was intending to shoot no matter what?
You haven’t been mugged before. Someone who says “Give me all your money or I’ll kill you” is doing far more to you than being too close. You’re lucky if you can keep your naivety your whole life, buddy. :rolleyes:
Nevermind, post I was responding to was edited to remove comment I was going to comment on.
BTW I agree there are situations you cannot draw fast enough, but in EVERY case of me being mugged I was in a bad neighborhood and if I had had a weapon, I would’ve had it in a position I could grab it very quickly (and in fact on the southside at 3am coming home on the El, I would’ve walked with it openly, it isn’t like there’s police around).
In all 3 instances I was mugged I had at least 30 seconds of EXTREME awareness something bad was going to happen with which I could’ve armed myself and made enough threat for the muggers that they would’ve moved on to look for someone else, had I a weapon. But someone stepping 3 feet from you with their hands in their pocket, yeah it’s better to just pay. But you guys who think a weapon can NEVER help you…
If someone tries to mug you and says “Gimme all your money, or I’ll kill you!” – is it morally okay to shoot and kill them to avoid giving up your wallet?
What if you draw a gun and say “Get away from me!”, but instead, they lunge towards you or pull a weapon of their own?
Is it morally okay to escalate a situation to a point where you’ll be - more or less - forced to shoot them?
I don’t believe this is relevant at all. Also, when exactly was the last time you conducted a study of gang member’s fighting abilities?
Neither am I, so what? I’m a pudgy guy in my thirties, are you asserting I’m somehow going to be vastly more capable than a gangbanger at a fistfight?
I stand by it–if you try this in real life, you’re going to get your ass beaten down and your gun taken from you. And that’s nothing personal–I wouldn’t bet on **me **in that situation, and I DO practice quickdraws and tactical shooting.
The bottom line is this–I don’t believe you can have your gun in a place that’s simultaneously
[ol]
[li]Completely concealed[/li][li]Easy to quickdraw and bring to bear[/li][li]A plausible location for you to pull a wallet from[/li][/ol]
unless you’re in a winter coat or something.
This does not match my experiences with being mugged, nor the experiences of anyone I know who’s been mugged. At all.
Also: the thesis was “a weapon getting involved is ALWAYS going to increase your personal risk of injury/death in a mugging situation”. I STILL stand by that assessment.
I want the gizmo that tells me or my wife that this is only a straight mugging, or simple home robbery etc. Sure will keep bad guys alive longer around me. … Not.
Borzo, Yes, yes & yes… In my moral system.
You all notice up thread where** ptkbites** gave you all those different situations? Well, he has already decided what he is going to do in different situations. The point: Ha has seriously thought about it. if you have not done so, during the event is way too late to start.
When I had / have children in my home, any unauthorized entry will be met with deadly force, even it it turns out to be a 12 year old girl with a Swiss army itty bitty knife in her hand. That decision has already been made.
I have had a Sister raped twice.
My 18 year old daughter was murdered.
I can guarantee you that not having a gun or weapon at hand did not save them. So having one could not have made it worse.
If you can not take a life, do not carry.
But to set up a scenario that you can not be sure what it is and then say what would be the thing to do is silly.
You have to decide in advance in general.
Break in my house and I will not wait to see what you are doing, I will assume the worse and take you out.
Same for pointing a weapon at me. Do that and I fear for my life and I will do my best to kill you as fast as I can. That decision is already made.
If you can not kill, do not tell others what they should do.
Anyone can dream up a cut & dried situation that has a high % correct solution. It does not have anything to do with real life and to go all pontificating about right & wrong is silly.
YMMV
Do you think, in a typical mugging, your possession of a firearm increases or decreases your chances of being injured or killed?
Yes. I am not even a conservative who worships property above all else. The falacy you are making is that you think that because they add the “give me your money!” part. They are threatening to KILL YOU, it doesn’t matter if they give you an “out”, your life is being threatened and you have no way of knowing if it will end at the money. You are morally justified to kill someone in self defense who has threatened your life, period.
I’m trying to come up with a person who just threatened to kill you who would lunge at a gun you draw and orders to “Get away from me!” who you’d be safer against WITHOUT a gun.
I got nothin’.
You’re not forced to shoot them because they can walk away at any time. They put you in a self defense situation where it is morally okay to do nearly anything to them as long as they are not retreating peacefully.
I’ve seen multiple gang members fight in real life and also online. I have rarely been impressed.
I’m saying gang members don’t tend to lunge at people who point guns at them and they are not anticipating someone fighting back, they pick their victims based on who they think will be afraid of them, and they are preoccupied with watching out for the police, your stupid idiotic excercise with foam knives and airsoft is about as realistic as Call of Duty is to middle eastern warfare.
You are overestimating the reflexes and fighting ability of the thug and UNDER estimating their fear of getting shot. Also I have never been mugged where a weapon was brandished first, in my head we are assuming no one is holding any weapon, otherwise I would agree with you.
Care to respond to my statement that all 3 times I have been mugged I was aware something bad was about to happen at least 30 seconds to a minute before anyone approached me? If I had had a weapon on me I would’ve pulled it and then NO ONE would have even approached me to threaten my life for money in the first place.
I am willing to concede there are times it will be a liability, the fact that you cannot imagine a single situation where a weapon wouldn’t help you in a mugging is wishful thinking on your part.