So if they only know I’m gay, they trust me more than if they know I’m an atheist. Does that mean that being a gay atheist actually improves my trust a little bit?
I have a problem with this statement: “A non militant atheist is someone who respects … the various religions.”
As an atheist I feel quite secure in telling you that I absolutely do not respect the various religions. I find every last one of them to be utterly ridiculous and I can’t believe grown-ups buy into them at all. That said, I do respect the fact that those grown-ups have a right to believe whatever nonsense they choose.
There is a qualitative difference, you know. And I don’t find anything militant about that outlook. Now if I was screaming that at random passers-by on the street … sure, I’d cop to being militant.
You don’t understand why this
is a response to this?
How can that be? It’s a direct response to your statement.
Anyway, any good and moral actions taken by Christians are under the threat of the gun. Or far more dramatic than that - under threat of infinite punishment. You believe that God knows everything you do, and if you fuck up too bad, he will give you a bigger punishment than all of the combined suffering in the history of the human race. You should be shitting your pants every time you do anything that can even vaguely be interpreted as against the rules.
Whereas when an atheist does something good and moral, they don’t believe Santa Claus is watching them waiting to reward or punish them. They do it because they’re good people - they want to do something good for other people, so that the world is a better place.
The idea that the former morality is more defensible to me is just bizarre. You do good because you’re under threat of the greatest punishment imaginable. We do good because, well, more people are happy because we do good and we don’t want to inflict suffering. And you get high and mighty about this. It’s comical.
Ah regardless of all the fluff people that think this way about atheists are just bigots. Pure, dumb bigot just like racists and misogynists and homophobes.
No it is not. The thing I said was “Christian morality”. “Follow these exact rules, even the kooky ones that do no one any good, or I WILL GIVE YOU INFINITE PUNISHMENT!!!” has not even a very distant relationship to Christian morality.
Please provide a relible citation for this.
You know, it’s rather disappointing to see you posting this after I listed you as one of the atheist posters that I most respect. Do you really think that poisoning the well like this is a good use of the Straight Dope Message Board?
I do think that this survey seems to lump all deists together.
As a fellow Brit up thread said, over here nobody cares.
I could believe the polls results if the the people asked were all fundamentalists, but the nominal believers who go to church for christenings, marriages, funerals and christmas carol services, probably are pretty much indifferent as to whether or not someone is an atheist or not.
Americans seem to take religion a lot more seriously then otherWestern nations.
It wasn’t just Americans who were asked, though. Over half were university students at UBC in Vancouver, Canada, not a bastion of conservative thought by anyone’s standard.
Relax people. I know it is nice to have a bit of a religious bunfight of a Friday evening but I think we can see where this is going.
Within two pages we have already descended into a battle of definitions and it is one that the religious cannot deal with. We can’t have a meaningful conversation about Christian vs Atheist morality unless both sides clearly define what they mean.
For atheists? easy, can do it in one sentence. “We have no belief in god or gods” That is it and it tells you nothing about whether we are a moral person or not. Sorry, but you’ll have to quiz every atheist individually to find out what makes them tick morally and ethically.
For Christians? ITR Champion seems to be suggesting that there is something called “Christian Morality” so it should be trivial for him/her to define it. I confess, after so many threads on similar subjects I am no wiser as to what being a Christian means in a practical sense. Is there a set of of immutable moral codes that all Christians must sign up to? Or, just like atheists, do we have to probe each person individually?
So let us clarify that ITR and we can progress to discussing what makes X more trustworthy than Y.
So you think an atheist is likely to be a communist or something? Communism has a lot more in common with religion (especially Islam) than with liberal-esque American atheism.
You don’t see a lot of unreasonable or extremist positions among religious people?
Pot, meet kettle.
I’m not familiar with a specifically “atheist” view of morality, but the Christian (or Catholic) position on birth control is extremely indefensible. Likewise with gays. Religion is also AWOL on environmentalism, which is a huge moral failing. Faith-based morality is also known as “superstition”.
Although there have been some exceptions, most church/state issues do not cross the line between government endorsement of religion and an employee’s free speech rights as an individual. For the government to place a Ten Commandments plaque in a courthouse or allow a prayer at a public school graduation is for the government to create an Establishment of Religion.
(BTW, IANAA)
If we actually have state occasions where attendance at religious services is important, then we darned well need more bricks in that wall. The wall of separation between church and state is a load-bearing wall, and if it’s got a hole that big worn into it, the entire edifice is in danger of collapse.
I parsed the thread title as “Believers seeking rapists they can trust find atheists to be unworthy in that respect”.
You, too? I can imagine having respect for a religious person, if he or she was otherwise intelligent, law-abiding, honest, and didn’t hassle me, but I’ve no particular respect for their religion, though out of politeness I might smile and nod and pay minimal lip service and escape the topic as early as possible. My “respect” consists, in that case, of pretending to not think of it as nonsense.
The term “wall of separation” is not found in the Declaration of Independence or the United States Constitution. It lacks legal significance. I would like for the wall to come tumbling down.
But it is the justification that the majority of Christians give for their morality (when they can be bothered to think about the justification of morality at all). So either you think that Atheist justifications of morality are even worse or you disprefer atheist leaders for reasons irrelevant to their justification for morality.
BTW since it’s become clear people don’t know what you mean when you refer to “Christian Morality” you should explain.
Well, now that we’ve established that metaphors don’t always appear in print, what’s your specific objection to how the first amendment has been interpreted and what would you suggest as an alternative?
This is not a question about atheist’s morality vs Christian morality. It’s about bigotry and that’s it. When you hold your feelings so strongly against a group of people just because they have a certain identity you are being hurtful, stupid and join the pantheon of intolerant people that justify their disgusting views and actions until going too far becomes the status quo. Saying "I wouldn’t hire a black or Jewish day care teacher or I wouldn’t elect a woman or Mormon to be president is absurd and sad. You take people as they have shown themselves to be not how your stereotypes fantasize about them being.
Hell-less Non-angels.
No, when you elect a Mormon to be President, you elect someone who potentially believes in magical underwear. What you get with an Atheist is someone who just doesn’t believe in a god, which is little different than all the other theists who don’t believe in your particular god.
I, for one, would prefer NOT to have sharia law made into an official part of the American judicial system.
The wall of seperation between Christian church and state, silly. Obviously other religions don’t count. Since they’re not the one true way and such.
Oh, and
That actually is in the Constitution. Hope that helps.