I just try to listen to what God has to say to me personally, while hoping that I’m not schizophrenic.
See, the Jesus Seminar is bad scholarship. I have studied it extensively and their reasoning is way off. And I don’t feel it is controversial. They didn’t come up with anything new and unusual. They just put it in the context of “This is the scholars way of thinking” which of course is suspect as they are actually very few who believe in it. The media makes it sound like just everybody believes it… but that is because the few who do get alot of press time.
The canonization of the Bible was done with criteria.Which I can’t think of off the top of my head but I can email or call someone…if interested let me know.
I am an evangelical so I sit in the middle of the liberals and fundies and pray I don’t get hit by any of the stones that either side is apt to throw.
Ruken: LOL Think about it, what would happen if, say, the burning bush, happened these days. On medication ya go! 
I believe the Bible because it is backed up by the historical record and extra Biblical material. I also believe it as I had my eyes open to its validity. I believe all of it including the OT. God uses our natural laws to work his will BUT He is all powerful and can override natural law to accomplish his will (Virgin birth, burning bush, talking donkeys, etc).
Zoe made a good point. It is a matter of faith and that is a gift from God. I think that science can be used to help back faith up but you can’t prove faith through science. God said that those who honestly and earnestly seek him will find Him. That is the good part as you are now inviting the Holy Spirit (3rd part of the Trinity, equal with God the Father) into the ballgame (so to speak). He will lead the process. And don’t forget as much as He is a God of love and mercy. He is also a God of justice who is perfect and cannot look upon sin. He can’t look upon us except through Jesus. That is why Jesus had to be the final sacrifice and that ultimately set us free from the ramifications of sin that we find in the OT. It is not something we do good or bad, it is Jesus being the ultimate and final sacrifice that is what really matters. It is the ressurection that ultimately matters.
About Hell…yes I believe in it. I believe it is a literal place. The Bible makes that clear. Because it is a literal absense of God there will be really bad bad things happening as the absense of God also means the absense of moral law. We don’t know what that is like because God is still at work in this world…which leads me toooooooo…
I believe that the Kingdom of God is upon us the cow is now dodging rocks from some people and I don’t believe in the Left Behind theory of the end times. I believe that the book of Revelations has already happened and we are now just waiting for the Second Coming and Final Judgement.
Ok, I am done now. If you want to email me about this subject…please feel free to. I can also look somethings up and maybe give some recommended readings or what not. I am not going to judge you or bring down the condemnation stone on anyone’s heads, as if somehow I had a right to do that. One of my big areas of interest is epistimology so I am extremely interested in how people know what they believe is true.
Have a wonderful Easter and I hope all had a Happy Passover. Peace/Shalom.
I believe that the Holy Spirit is very personal and leads us as individuals in the ways that we ourselves must go. Of course, I could be wrong.
What are some of the passages you use to guide you?
I like the Beatitudes, and what is said about the fruits of the spirit. I like the two Great Commandments. Paul’s chapter on love in Corinthians is beautiful and there is one is Romans about not being conformed to the world. I also like what was said about the lillies of the field. There is so much beauty and love and peace and that’s what I want to dwell on.
I think my favorite Old Testament story is of Esther. As a child I was thrilled to find a story about a woman of such courage.
If you are in Denmark, you may be getting close to sunrise on Easter morning. I get tears in my eyes thinking about it. I need this Easter more than I’ve needed any other, I think.
Peace be with you.
No offense, Zoe, but it seems you’re picking what parts of the Bible you think are correct, that you should live your life by, just on the grounds of which ones you like.
YAY! A fellow partial Preterist! (A-Mil or PostMil?)
Actually, I waver between partial Preterism & historic PreMillism.
A mill
I was a believer for many years, until I found out it is all a giant lie. So I don’t believe anything from the Bible that can’t be verified historically, which excludes the entire Jebbuz myth right off the bat.
I am a former Christian and it seems we’ve reached a similar conclusion. Even though I value the Bible I have reached the conclusion that the only real “word of God” is the living spirit that we commune with. No writing, no matter how revered or what it is declared to be by individuals or church officials can ever be that.
When you really study the history of the Bible and where it came from, as well as how Christianity changed in those first two or three centuries it really opens your eyes. I’m not sure what to believe about the story of Jesus anymore. What parts of the story happened and what parts didn’t? There’s no way of knowing. My conclusion is it doesn’t matter. Certain words resonate within me and I take from it what I am ready for. How that affects me and through me the people I interact with is what matters.
If I may suggest some reading. I just finished “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman. A great look at how the Bible changed in those first centuries of Christianity by a leading Biblical scholar.
and “The Disappearance of the Universe” by Gary Renard. Gary presents some interesting alternative concepts about Jesus and spirituality
I’m sorry, even a cursory knowledge of the Bible shows that this is incorect.
So God certainly can look upon sin. I guess I’ve never understood why some Christians diminish the power of God to build up the power of Jesus.
Interesting.
How 'bout a cursory cite?
How so?
Actually, I’d say that fairly few Christians believe in the Bible in the strict definition of the term “to believe in” – and they’re deluded. (That’s not an insult to my conservative Christian brethren; it’s a statement of theological truth.) To believe in something, or more properly Someone, is to put one’s trust and confidence in it/him/her as a person who can be relied on. The creeds all say “I believe in God” with subordinate clauses explaining about the God in whom one believes.
All Christians believe the Bible to be “inspired” – but their definition of what “inspired” means varies greatly. Some ultra-conservatives consider it to have been dictated by God to the human authors as amanuenses. Others believe that the Holy Spirit kept the human authors from adding error or any sort, or merely doctrinal error. Yet others believe in inspiration as God guiding the authors to say things in their own words, which may well include both sublime truth and inane error.
The best metaphor I’ve ever run into points out that the Bible is, literally, a library – a collection of books under one cover. (The original word Biblia literally meant books from the Phoenician city Byblos.) So take a library: you’ll find the Encyclopedia Britannica, The Descent of Species, A Short History of Time, Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Die Antwort von Erde, War and Peace, Huckleberry Finn, Hawaii, A Wrinkle in Time, Warriors of Gor, Chariots of the Gods, and The Davinci Code. Which of those books are “true”? And do you find the meaning of “truth” slippery when considering things like insightful fiction?
Genesis differs from Leviticus differs from II Kings differs from Jonah differs from Job differs from Mark differs from Acts differs from Ephesians differs from Revelation. Each is in a different style, written for a different purpose, conveys its message in a different way, and is subject to the ‘truth’ criterion in a different manner.
I believe the criteria had to do with who was believed to have authored certain books. Was it an apostle? Tradition played a big role in this since for several books, we still don’t know who wrote them. Which books had traditionally been accepted by many Christian leaders was also an influence.
Theology also played a major role in which books were selected. There was a lot of controversy over what doctrine and which beliefs were taught by Christ. Ultimately which beliefs became “official” doctrine and which books most supported those beliefs were chosen by men. Men who may have been well intentioned but still passed on their theology about Jesus to future generations and writings they declared to be sacred. They then proceeded to prosecute those who interpreted Jesus differently {an example of Jesus’ teachings?}
Actually it really isn’t. That’s an idea promoted by Christians that doesn’t really hold up under honest scholastic scrutiny. What historical record tells us about the Bible is that it was changed a lot. Sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose. Many of these changes are insignificant but others are theologically very significant. We don’t have the original “inspired” writings. What we have are copies of copies of copies that have been altered by men. In light of the undeniable evidence of these facts I have a hard time understanding how anyone can refer to the Bible as the inerrant word of God. It may be called faith but IMHO it’s faith in Christian tradition not faith in God or Jesus. Jesus actually taught that the truth would set us free and we shouldn’t be swayed by the traditions of men.
There isn’t Christian truth and then the other truth. There is just the truth. There are things we know. Things we think we know. Things we are aware we don’t know and only have ideas about. Faith resides {or should reside} in those areas where we don’t know. Science can help us sort things out. It helps to separate religious myth and tradition from the truth. We don’t need to believe in Thor now that we have scientific evidence on what causes thunder and lightening. I believe in the Holy Spirit as a source of guidance, insight, and spiritual growth. You may find it interesting that the only verse in the NT that refers to the trinity doctrine {1 John 5:7-8}KJV is one that scholars suspect was added after the fact. In fact it is left out of other later versions of the Bible.
Thanks **Polycarp ** for your comments. In conversations my own thoughts are sometimes viewed as an attack on Christianity. That is not my intention. I only want to get people to challenge their own beliefs and not accept them blindly based on tradition and what some so called authority told them. Worship of Jesus should not be threatened by looking at the evidence and embracing the truth.
I enjoyed your description of the Bible as a library. There’s a section in Bart Enrman’s book about the NT that I thought was insightful as well. The scribes who copied the books of the NT interpreted the originals which were the authors interpretation of their own spiritual experience. Those who compiled the NT also had their interpretation which influenced their choices about which books were included and we have various doctrines based of different Christian interpretations of those books. It is an inescapable human trait. We interpret what information is available to us and make a judgement call based on our individual interpretation.
That interpretation and that judgement call is based on longings, needs, wants, beliefs, perspectives, worldviews, opinions, likes, dislikes etc. Whatever truth we think we discern from that interpretation, we should be very cautious about declaring it the spiritual truth for everyone else.
Thanks **Polycarp ** for your comments. In conversations my own thoughts are sometimes viewed as an attack on Christianity. That is not my intention. I only want to get people to challenge their own beliefs and not accept them blindly based on tradition and what some so called authority told them. Worship of Jesus should not be threatened by looking at the evidence and embracing the truth.
I enjoyed your description of the Bible as a library. There’s a section in Bart Enrman’s book about the NT that I thought was insightful as well. The scribes who copied the books of the NT interpreted the originals which were the authors interpretation of their own spiritual experience. Those who compiled the NT also had their interpretation which influenced their choices about which books were included and we have various doctrines based of different Christian interpretations of those books. It is an inescapable human trait. We interpret what information is available to us and make a judgement call based on our individual interpretation.
That interpretation and that judgement call is based on longings, needs, wants, beliefs, perspectives, worldviews, opinions, likes, dislikes etc. Whatever truth we think we discern from that interpretation, we should be very cautious about declaring it the spiritual truth for everyone else.
My apologies for the double post :o {dam computer} Admin. please remove one.
No, Communion with the Holy Spirit has a lot to do with surrender. That’s something very personnel for each individual. If people believe two different things that’s a judgement call they made and may have nothing to do with the Spirit at all. Ultimately being in harmony with the spirit means being in harmony with each other.
Cosmosdan, thanks for the reading recommendations. I can certainly appreciate your viewpoint.
No offense taken and I can understand why you would think that. Actually, I was hijacking the thread just a little by talking about my favorite passages and asking mr. jp his. I wasn’t implying that those were the only passages that I believe to be true, wise or the will of God. And I don’t know if some of the Old Testament stories that I love – such as the one about Esther – are factual. That is irrelevant to me. What is important to me is the lesson of the value of integrity and courage.
Um, the contention was, as I quoted
And I cited Genesis which described God looking at the sin of humans that caused him to do the Flood.
Now, being Jewish, I grew up not believing there were any limits to God’s power to do logically possible things. Many Christians say that God doesn’t want to send us to hell, but has to. The post I responded to said that God cannot look upon sin, and so had to act through Jesus. I learned that you prayed to God directly to be written into the Book of Life for the next year. Now, who is the more powerful God - the one who could do it himself, or the one who had to work through Jesus?
I don’t believe in God any more, but when I did I couldn’t conceive of a god who said that he wasn’t listening to me, and that I had to go to the church down the street.