Inspired by this thread. Disclaimer: I don’t lurk here (in GD) much. I’m not that smart and I don’t have as much time as I wish. Plus my search skills suck.
I just had a conversation with a (what I consider to be crazy ) friend of mine. They told me all about how God plants ‘evidence’ of an older universe. Red shifting is put in place to test the faithful. Blah blah blah.
My question is this: Why? If God is magic, why can’t we all be like Gumby? Why does everything need to justify itself scientifically? In other words, why does God need to hide his magic behind what seems to be math logic? If we really are just life breathed into dust, why all all the justification? Why can’t we just be living ‘plastic’?
So do you want me to answer the question posed in the thread title or the unrelated questions in the final paragraph of the original post? If the former I’ll do it but if the later it’s irrelevant to me.
Some (not all) theists are trying to have it both ways. They try to gussy up their religion and theology by trying to make it sound scientific. In the end though I don’t think it works.
I wouldn’t say I am sure of my beliefs, but I see enough of what appears to be evidence of design in the make-up of the universe, which leans me in the direction of believing there probably is a designer.
Coupled with the fact that the age of the universe appears to be finite, I find it more likely that something caused the Big Bang as opposed to nothing. Reasoning backwards, it would appear as though this something would have to be an immaterial, timeless, powerful entity. You see where this is going.
This is certainly short of “proof” that the universe has a creator but it’s enough to tip my scales far enough in the direction that I am inclined to believe.
I don’t think theists really are so sure about their beliefs. I think the feign certainty for a couple reasons:
That behavior has been modeled for them, and they don’t want to feel left out
They’re trying to fool everyone (friends, family, god, and especially themselves) into believing they’re really, really faithful (which, apparently, is a good thing, although I can’t for the life of me understand why)
It’s just so intellectually dishonest. I’d have a lot more respect for your average religious person if they could just get off their supernatural high horse and admit they have doubt. That would be a lot more reasonable, believable and respectable.
You know, if people really want a discussion on a subject, it’s best not to muddy it with various gibberish questions. And even better if a bunch of nay-sayers don’t come in to further piss in the pool. Wanna try a do-over?
I’m sure that my beliefs are what I believe. Anything else is open to modification and I’m very conscious that what works for me does not necessarily work for others.
As for the post itself, I don’t even understand what “be like Gumby” means.
I see design in the Cosmos. Thus, I think there’s a Designer. It’s a greater leap for me to believe that Mind developed from Mindless Matter in Motion than to believe that a Mega-Mind crafted it all.
I see the Jews survive & thrive in spite of every attempt to oppress & destroy them. Therefore, I believe that the Mega-Mind is also the LORD God of Israel.
While the Saga of Israel is compelling, it has not made itself relevant to the nations of the world & has indeed kept mostly to itself out of sheer necessity to maintain its survival. However, in the Person of Jesus, His Gospel and His Church, I see The LORD With a Message and a Heritage for all humanity.
I’m not trying to get into a huge drawn out debate on this subject, but I’m a bit curious about this: Why does the Cosmos speak design to you? The reason I ask is that it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of the universe (say 99.9%) is utterly hostile to life. It seems that, to me, the sheer size of the universe necessitates some kind of life, just on probability.
That’s where I’m coming from - my question is how are you seeing things differently? That is, you say you see ‘design’ in the cosmos, but what precisely do you mean?
My response to this is similar to the first response, which is why this is a bit confusing. I look at what has happened to the Jews as utter brutality. Their culture is lucky to have survived. Were I a believer I would certainly think that God had something against the Jewish people and wanted them to suffer.
Yet I don’t believe you see it this way, correct?
I can understand this viewpoint a bit better, I suppose, so I don’t have any commentary on it.
I believe in a Creator and Judge. They are likely to be the same entity (given my Occamist tendencies).
I believe that most if not all religious beliefs and practices are window dressing, self-justification, and traditional culture-defining myths.
Aside from that, I also believe that there is no point in making life any more miserable for others than it is already, so I try to be as “good” a person as i can.
Edited to add: Given how poorly defined my personal beliefs are, it is hard to say why (or even whether) I am “so sure” of them.
Since you brought up the emergence of life in a seemingly hostile Universe, that is indeed where I think we have to begin with Mindful Design instead of Mindlessness. I don’t believe it was inevitable life would eventually emerge out of the vastness, much less Self-aware & Self-determining Life.
Re the brutality of Jewish history- their own founders and sages noticed it (even predicted it, if you will) and saw two possibilities in it- that it validated the Covenant by showing what penalties fall on Israel for violating it (Deuteronomy 28-32) and that the Righteous of Israel have a destiny as God’s Servant suffering for the wrongs of not only the sinners of Israel, but of all humanity (Isaiah 52-53).
And I think their survival is due to something more than luck.
Does that help, Meatros? Thanks for the respectful & insightful challenge.
By the way, you can’t grill me. I am, after all, a Fryer.
I do take that as a prophecy of Jesus but many religious Jews take that as a reference to the Righteous of Israel. I actually could see it as being both- with Jesus being the Individual Personification of the Righteous of Israel.
The OP has brought up an interesting question for me. (Atheist here).
Miss Manners, who is my own personal guru, says politeness is the best answer to impoliteness. So, never be rude even in nswer to perceived rudeness. Therefore, I wonder, was the answer in the linked op (“Atheists, why are you so sure of your belief”) impolite, or not? To my Dutch eyes, where atheism is the standard, it was certainly a strange and somewhat annoying question.
Most of the theists I know have never ever thought about it in depth. I once asked my aunt “Why?” And she looked at me blankly. To her, God is and there is just no way to brook any argument. Why, the Vedas say so, and the Gita says so, and if I delve into it anymore, it is also that she believes she has suffered a great deal in this life* and is going to have a wonderful life next time around, because God is going to reward her for her sufferings.
*Tough, but she has some wonderful rewards to show for it. And honestly, if she’d stop worrying about the next life so much, and take care of this life, it might be better.
But IM, the theists I know IRL follow that exact formula: 1. They have never thought about it and just accepted it, and 2. They expect a reward.
Very few people actually really think about it, and even when they do, when there are answers in every religion along the lines of “God works in mysterious ways” then it’s easier even to put doubts aside.
I’m not the OP, but my guess is, why do we need to have all of this complex internal architecture, like veins, blood, organs, bones, any of which can fail. If God is omnipotent, and just breathed life into dirt, why can we just be like those Gumby dolls, basically uniform through and through?
Most people see the complexity as evidence of common descent, evolution, etc., but there are a minority of Christians who deny evolution, or at least large-scale evolution. The OP’s question may be directed at them. I think those kinds of Christians are a tiny minority on this board, though.
My view is that the amount of complexity in living things argues against an Adam-and-Eve-style Creator, but some Intelligent Design “theorists” argue that the complexity argues for a creator – a watch is more complex than a rock, and a watch clearly has a creator. A person is more complex than a rock – where is the creator?
Anyway, the question in the thread title seems to have little to do with the questions posed in the OP itself.
I am not sure of my faith. It is after all a ‘belief in things not seen.’ I have no more proof of God’s existence than I do that something called a ‘quark’ exists. I take them on faith.
