Why should he say it was a mistake when he made clear his intention at the time, and it has not changed since then:
http://www.independentsforkerry.org…kerry-iraq.html
He would be altering his position if he changed it now. He appears to be a man of consistency, despite what Fox News would incessantly pound into your head otherwise.
“When I hear this coming from Dick Cheney, who was a coward, who would not serve during the Vietnam War, it makes my blood boil,” Tom Harkin (D) Senator, Iowa.
Well, Bob the Tomato, while Harkin called Cheney a coward I don’t see anything in the above quote that calls his patriotism or citizenship into question. Honorability? Well, okay. But I also think that it’s somewhat less than honorable to claim, as Cheney did, “I had other priorities,” while questioning Kerry’s war record. Just like Harkin.
As a matter of fact, I rather like this, from your link:
“He’ll be tough, but he’ll be tough with someone else’s kid’s blood,” said Harkin.
And he’s done precisely that. All while not having his patriotism or citizenship called into question. A charge that I’ve seen come from Mr. Moto and nobody else. Usually to speak in a roundabout fashion for others. For instance:
and, again:
and:
And I’m just wondering where these people are who are calling into question the patriotism of those who were Reservists and/or Guardsmen. Or who claim that they are somehow less than citizens due to their service. Because I’m sure as hell not seeing them.
Well, Waste, you haven’t been paying close enough attention then.
We have this lovely quote from John Kerry, from a Fox News interview:
This was seen, rightly or wrongly, as equating Guard service with fleeing to Canada or going to jail. This statement had a lot of Guard members, active and veterans both, very angry.
Between idiotic remarks like this, and Kerry’s 1971 testimony before the Senate, it seems to me that the only military service he truly respects is that performed by him.
Mr. Moto, I am quite sure that the only people who were truly bothered by that statement were those who were only looking for an excuse for their pre-determined bias against Kerry. Kerry says that some people dodging the draft entered the Guard, not that everyone entering the Guard dodged the draft.
However, Bush appears to have equated his entry into the Guard with other methods of dodging the draft:
I wonder if all those people you know who were so angered by Kerry’s statement were equally angered by Bush’s.
Well, Moto, I actually was paying attention. And the single quotation that you’ve managed to provide in no way shape or form calls anyone’s patriotism or citizenship into question. As you’ve claimed is being done.
As a matter of fact, the quote that you provided, ah hell, I’ll post it again:
Specifically states that Kerry doesn’t judge anyone based on their past. As opposed to your insinuation that he’s somehow calling into question the patriotism and citizenship of Reservists/Guardsmen. So, once more, where are these Democrats who are doing so? Surely you can provide me with scads of examples, since you’ve now stated in at least two threads that this is happening. If anyone thought that his quote (singular, not plural) was denigrating in any way, shape or form the patriotism of anyone, then they had made up their minds well in advance that Kerry was a bad, bad man. And with that being the case, there was no way in hell that they were ever going to vote for him anyway.
And this:
Seems pretty pissy on your part. Particularly from one who would never attack Kerry for his medals. Because he won them honorably and all like that.
And in closing, what Hentor the Barbarian said inre those who get their knickers in a twist over what Kerry said (and what they think he meant) not getting up in arms over Bush fils and his statement.
Well, Hentor and Waste, that quote doesn’t help Bush much, I’ll admit.
But it pales in contrast with Kerry’s antiwar activities and perceived anti-military voting record in the Senate when it comes to riling up folks.
Maybe this fact escaped you both, but we’re in an election year. And elections are won by candidates who connect with the public and persuade it to vote for them. They’re not won by candidates who, though their statements may be accurate on points, neverless alienate voters through their rhetoric.
John Kerry has had trouble connecting with veterans and winning them over. Bush has been more successful with this voting bloc.
We’ll see who carries the veterans and Guardsmen in November, but I’m betting on Bush.
I can’t get your link to work, although I do appreciate the quote. But it still doesn’t address the inconsistencies in his position.
If WMDs were the only reason for the authorization, why does he say he would still vote for it even if he knew what we now know?
If he would be the “among the first to speak out” against a misuse of the authorization, do we have any quotes from him in early '03 when it was clear that no broad coalition had been formed, and that inspections were terminated? I’ve asked this question before, and no one has produced any. I’m not saying they might not exist, I just don’t know of any.
You and the other Kerry supporters can bury your colletive head in the sand if you like and say this is just Fox News spreading lies, but the fact is you hear confusion about Kerry’s position on Iraq all over the place. Chris Matthews of MSNBC, a clear Kerry supporter, brings this up regularly on Hardball.
The authority to declare war is probably THE most important authority reserved to Congress by the constitution. And yet Kerry makes the vote that authorized the war against Iraq sound more like some Senate proccedural vote.
Sentiment about the war in Iraq is currently about 50/50 in the US. Kerry has the opportunity to show his leadership skills by taking that sentiment more in disfavor by coming out strongly against the actions, including his own, that led to that war. Just saying, in effect, “I didn’t do it” is not enough.
Don’t get me wrong here. I’m not so much talking about what Kerry should do on moral or ethical grounds. He has no more obligaction in that realm than any other Senator. I’m talking about what he should do tactically to turn his campaign around. It’s floundering right now, and he needs an issue that he can pound Bush with. Vietnam is not that issue. The economy is not that issue. The War on Terror is not that issue*. The Iraq war IS that issue.
*he might be able to get some mileage out of this, but it would be a long, uphill battle since Bush gets significantly higher marks on this issue than Kerry and there really isn’t much time between now and November to turn that around.
Oh, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bush gets more votes among Guard members and veterans, given that they as a group, AFAIK, always vote in greater numbers for Republicans. I think the main issue will be what proportion of these voters Kerry wins. I’ll see your wager, and bet you that Kerry wins a larger proportion than Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale… and I’ll offer you up the speculation that it is because more members of these groups than is typical see enough problems with the Republican candidate to outweigh their military and defense perceptions.
Further, as to the latter bit about perceptions, it would be honorable if you would stop joining in the lies about Kerry’s votes for defense. I know, I know, you were couching it in terms of the “perception,” but that perception is only there because of the lies of the administration and Fox News. Please show the integrity that John McCain and, IIRC, Tommy Franks have shown on the topic.
Face facts, the whole Vietnam issue isn’t going to change anyone’s vote as it is now being played out. It’s degenerated into an arcane pit of accusation and counter-accusation, and most voters won’t bother trying to sort it out. The only way that Vietnam service is going to hurt either opponent at this point is if someone comes up with a good slogan.
But see, Moto, I’m really wanting to see some of those quotes wherein Democrats claim that Reservists/Guardsmen are less than patriotic. Or that those who received deferments are second-class citizens. You remember, like you’ve claimed on this very thread. So, where are they? Because this is where I call you on those statements and you either provide instances where your claims are backed up (and not where people might believe something that I’ve not encountered anyone claiming to believe except you) or stand up, be a man, and admit that you are wrong. Or, spin something new like your latest line about Kerry’s testimony in 1971.
So, if it’s all right with you, I’m just gonna be waiting right here. So you’ll be able to find me when you apologize for your slurs. Wouldn’t wanna make you look too hard.
And this:
Comes as no surprise whatsoever. Most veterans align themselves with Republicans. Case in point would be you. And Kerry actually has veterans supporting him. More than seven, at last count. So he obviously is able to connect with veterans.
And, once again, you show yourself to be less than honorable by bagging on Kerry’s service, but sanctimoniously saying that he won his decorations honorably. Or do you think that he won his decorations in some fashion other than his service?
Excuse me? Where have I ever bagged on his service?
I’m hard on Kerry’s activities as an antiwar protester, and his Senate record. I have also noted on these boards falsehoods he has told.
I have been nothing but respectful toward his genuine heroism, though, and you’d be hard pressed to find an example where I wasn’t deferential toward it.
So sorry, I understand why you may have missed it:
Of course, I’m sure that I misunderstood your crack about the only military service he respects being his own. So enlighten me, please.
Yep. You’ve also claimed that there are people out there claiming that they are made to feel like second-class citizens due entirely to their deferments. Not to mention those Reservists/Guardsmen who are upset that they’re patriotism has been called into question. Again, consider this your invitation to either demonstrate that this is happening, or apologize for your smears.
I’ll still be waiting right here. . .
Right. His heroism. As opposed to his service, right?
And I’m still waiting. . .
Isn’t a coward a second class citizen, or worse? Or doesn’t that count?
From Kerry’s famous midnight speech:
Is this really how he feels? That he’ll only entertain questions concerning his record from other combat veterans? And, if they’re the only people allowed to question his record, how does the “citizenship” of the rest of us hold up?
Some more:
So again, someone who got legal deferments isn’t fit to participate in the political process, the push and pull of rhetoric.
Remember, the object of this exercise is to win votes. And John Kerry is asserting, through his rhetoric, that Guardsmen and people who sought deferments are to be scorned.
Guardsmen and those who sought deferments in those years aren’t likely to appreciate such rhetoric, which was my original contention.
As to my criticisms of Kerry, I hope you can all appreciate that I have always respected Kerry’s military service. It’s his “service” as a Senator and as a protester that I have issues with.
I believe I’ve been above board in saying so. I’m not a stealth Bush voter. My political positions are right there in the open.
You’re joking, right? Calling someone a coward is equivalent to calling them a second-class citizen? Your views intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Mr. Moto: You are obviously incapable of recognizing what is meant. Not a problem, that’s why I’m here:
Now, you wonder if Kerry really thinks that his record can only be questioned by other veterans. That is patently absurd. As is your follow up question:
See, what you’ve done here is make a leap that was in no way called for. Not at all surprising. After all, you have to try desperately to put words into Kerry’s mouth. But you know that. You’re not dumb enough to believe what you’ve laid out.
And more:
Now, someone capable of recognizing simple speech that doesn’t even involve any of that pesky nuance can recognize that Kerry is holding his service up as a comparison to that of Cheney. And as I’m sure you’re aware, Cheney did indeed have five deferments.
However, for you to conflate that into:
Is, once more, absurd. Of course, you knew that too.
Of course, there is olne thing on which we agree:
However, when you claim:
Then you’ve made the object of this into painting the opposition with as broad a brush as possible. This comes as no surprise, since the candidate that you will be voting for has absolutely nothing to run on in the way of a record. Well, not one that he or you want to touch with a ten foot pole, anyway.
So, while you, in your fervid imagination, claim that Kerry is shitting all over the patriotism and citizenship of Reservists/Guardsmen and/or those who received deferments, the rest of us are out here in the real world. Where the sun shines on lies and half-assed untruths, drying them out like dust. Dust which is blown away.
Oh! And this:
Would be great if only you hadn’t preceded it with this:
And the onus is once more on you to either show me the Democrats who are “playing with fire” inre the questioning of the patriotism and/or citizenship of people, or apologize for your baseless smears.
I’ll still be waiting right here. . .
Uh… I’m not sure that I know what you are talking about, but most people I know don’t consider calling someone a coward to be a nice thing.
Actualy it appears that the honus is upon everyone to convince you that the Dems are questioning patriotism or calling others second class citizens. Several have already shown it. You just don’t agree…
I suspect that will be a hard thing to do.
I’m not apologizing for anything.
My contention was that the overheated rhetoric regarding Guard service and deferments might, eventually, backfire on the folks spewing it.
I have offered some examples, that are in fact divisive and are seen as such by many people in the Guard community, at least.
Whether such statements are that big of a deal are, of course, a matter of opinion.
My criticisms of Kerry aren’t “smears”. They’re legitimate criticisms of him and his campaign.
Whether Kerry believes I’m allowed to make them, considering that I’m a mere veteran and not a war hero, is an interesting question as well.
What this all boils down to is that Kerry hides behind his war hero status to avoid answering substantial questions about policy. He’s been doing it a long time.
Whether he can sell this in one more race remains to be seen.
Apparently so, and lousy ones at that. That’s what CNN is reporting as I type. One dead giveaway that CNN highlighted was the elevated serif on 187[sup]th[/sup]. It should have been 187th. No typewriter from the 70’s could have done that superscript. Also, the family flatly denies CBS’s claim that it supplied the documents.
This “fact”, as well as several others related to the forgery allegations, is refuted quite explicitly here. An excerpt: