I guess Groove is what I should have called them. They were “beats” before they were “grooves” and I guess I wasn’t paying attention when the names changed.
Sorry for the confusion.
There’s a definite difference between the two terms, actually. The best, simplest way I can think to describe the difference is this: the beat tell you when to move your feet; the groove is the reason why you move your feet. Another way of saying it would be that the beat is what you play, the groove is how you play it.
The thing is that “beat” has a fairly straightforward, long-established definition, but “groove”, as the Wikipedia article states, is hard to define. It’s one of those things you know when you hear/feel it. A “beat” can be flawless, but have no groove, which was one of the problems with early drum machines. Perfect beats, but with no feeling.
I don’t mean to be pedantic, it’s just that as a bass player one of my primary functions is to establish a groove with the drummer. I’ve played with some drummers and from the very first song we “locked in” and created a sweet groove, and I’ve played with other drummers who may have been technically skilled, but for one reason or another we just couldn’t establish that “feel” together (and I’m not blaming the drummers here - I could be just as much at fault for being unable to lock in with the drummer as he is for not locking in with me).
Anyway, I’m not a Michael Jackson fan, but I’ve always thought that Billy Jean has one of the best grooves ever recorded. I also had no idea Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress was by The Hollies. I always thought that was CCR :smack:
Something tells me that if “I don’t mean to be pedantic” had been the case, and if you really wondered whether this thread was about “grooves” instead of “beats” that you might have given the benefit of the doubt to the 44 examples that I had posted before you asked your question. If your purpose was to demonstrate a more credentialed presence in the thread long enough to derail what had been an exercise in providing (as the title indicated) audio examples of what you consider to be among the Best Beats (or Best Grooves) then it looks as if you may have achieved your objective.
But just to demonstrate that the word “beat” can have synonymous usage to “groove” (at least long enough that some examples might clarify things) you could check http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beat[2] where you will see:
and since that definition refers to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rock[2] you can see there that
Since your claim is that as a musician yourself you should be able to identify “good grooves” from “bad grooves” perhaps you could join the spirit of the thread and post some examples, not just names, but links to some audio, of some clear cases of each type. If you wish to leave the “bad grooves” for another thread, that would suit me just fine.
In passing, I’ll endorse your comments:
But my main purposes in starting this thread in CS as opposed to GD have been that:
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I didn’t want to engage in debate about what made a good beat. I wanted examples.
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I wanted the entries in this thread to be more specific than just “favorite YouTube clips.” There are quite a few of those threads already in place.
Please don’t get this moved to GD!
No, I wasn’t trying to derail the thread or get it moved. I was honestly a bit confused. When I saw posts #14 and #16, I didn’t notice those were also by you (I usually don’t look at the name of every poster before reading each post), and I thought somebody must have been thinking the same question I was thinking, and that they decided to be a smart-aleck and post a bunch of drum solos instead of just asking for clarification. And truthfully, if I had noticed those posts were yours, I would have been even more confused about what you were looking for and I still would have asked my original question because posts 14 & 16 appeared to be at odds with the OP (meaning the OP fit my understanding of “groove”, while 14 & 16 fit “beat”). But not just those posts - most of the other posts seemed strictly divided between “beat” and “groove”, which led me to think I wasn’t the only one unclear about what was being asked.
But apologies if I came across as a dick. I perhaps got overenthusiastic because I’ve been reading posts on all sorts of topics here for quite some time and reading answers from people who really know their stuff, and it’s not often somebody posts a topic that falls into my personal “area of expertise”. So finally somebody (you) does, and I guess I was too eager to finally get to offer my “expert” opinion. I simply wanted to be perfectly clear on what you were looking for.
Apologies accepted. I’m renewing my request for you to post some examples and indicate whether “beat” or “groove” or “rhythm” is more a factor in them.
If I appear to have multiple definitions of “beat” in play, that’s probably because it’s true. The “groove” aspect of the OP and the next 5 or 6 posts gave way to posts where some fine drumming is in evidence.
As I tried to indicate above, I was hoping this thread would be “beat” oriented, and that “beat” could include the various meanings it may have.
I even want to include any Classical music where the beat or rhythm is pronounced and catchy. Ravel’s Bolero, for instance.
I have no objection to your (or anybody else’s) making a mini-lecture about these differences. But I would really appreciate fewer words and more links.
Tally Ho!
For my money this is as much Groove as Beat.
Beat: Drums
Groove: Bassline
That’s about as succinct as it gets
I’m all for succinct, but not at the expense of accurate. Is it your position that the Babatunde Djembe performance above is just Beat? See, I contend that the groove these guys achieve is free of the bassline you seem to require.
To me the groove is the collective pulse that more than one performer gets out of the effort. Said another way: one performer has trouble getting a groove going; it takes at least two. But the bass isn’t a requirement for a groove.
In this particular sense I’m equating groove and beat.
Ozomatli - Cumbia de los Muertos
Sammy Nestico - Belly Roll (sorry best quality I could find…)
Absolutely, Chingon! Made me think of El Chicano - Viva Tirado Live 1971
All of this is fair enough but this:
Does not follow. The Groove can be the beat in some cases yes, and it’s definitely a visceral thing. ‘What is Jazz?’ “If you have to ask baby, you’ll never know.” It’s one of those sorts of things, but in most pop music the beat is the drums and the groove is the bassline.
How about this one, then? rare silk (I can recall) Spain
Zeldar your post reminded me of another entry:
Chick Corea -
Spain (gotta wait for a minute or two for it to kick into gear, but its worth it)
As for the beat v groove thing, I understand the precise need for terminology, but I am interpreting is loosely as:
it invokes such a primitive reaction in me that I have to move along with it, regardless of much of a fool it makes me look.
Chingon, in case you haven’t already, check out the version of Spain on that same page as your link that features Bobby McFerrin and Bela Fleck.
Above I pretty much ruled out a one-man groove. I still feel that a true groove is a collaborative effort by at least two. But if any one man can pull it off, among the most likely is Adrian Legg although Jose Feliciano can compete. I would hope that there’s little doubt that both these guys, without drums or bass, are laying down a solid beat.
Adding after post: I like that simple way of looking at the issue, Chingon.
Okay. I count over 60 examples so far. Using whatever definition of Beat, Groove, Rhythm, Pulse, or whatever term you’d use to describe the majority of selections in this thread, select a minimum of 5 and as many as 10 from the list below that you personally would consider in the Top 5 or Top 10 of those listed.
This is for everybody reading the thread, whether you posted yet or not.
The list:
==================================
Long cool woman (in a black dress)
sugarloaf - green eyed lady
The Beatles Day Tripper
Pink Floyd - Money
Stevie Wonder ~ Superstition
Michael Jackson - Billie Jean
Whatd I Say
Chet Atkins "Boo Boo Stick Beat’
BILL DOGGETT HONKY TONK
Booker T & the MG’s - green onions - mod classic 60s
The Ventures “Walk Don’t Run”
The Mar-Keys: from the Night Before to the Morning After
actually three songs:
- Last Night - 1961 hit
- Night Before
- Morning After - nonhit single
B. B. King & Eric Clapton - The Thrill Is Gone
B.B. King - The Thrill Is Gone: 1993/Live At B.B. King’s Blues Club, Blues Summit
Bo Diddley - Bo Diddley
Boz Scaggs - Lowdown
“Monterey”, Eric Burdon
Gino Vannelli - People Gotta Move
Chicago (band)- “Mongonucleosis” LIVE 1977
YYZ by Rush
All The Pretty Little Horses by Calexico.
TNT by Tortoise.
Roy Head, Treat Her Right
Barret Strong - Money (That’s what I want)
Dave Brubeck - Unsquare Dance
richie cole hi-fly
Sweet - Ballroom Blitz
Thin Lizzy - Jailbreak
James Gang - Funk 49
Queen - Another One Bites the Dust
Golden Earring - Radar Love
Led Zeppelin - ‘When The Levee Breaks’.
PETER GUNN THEME
Mission Impossible Theme Tune
Fleetwood Mac - You Make Loving Fun
Chain Of Fools
Dire Straits - Money For Nothing (Wembley Arena)
The Allman Brothers Band with Duane - Whipping Post
Allman Brothers - In Memory of Elizabeth Reed
Eric Clapton and Mark Knopfler - Cocaine
JERRY REED / GUITAR MAN
Carnival Dance- Black Orpheus - Marcel Camus
Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps.
Blast! Drumline Battery Battle
Stomp- Stomp Out Loud
Art Blakey - Blues March
Buddy Rich Drum Solo
Omar Hakim on Roland V-Drum
Joe Morello - Magnificent Drum Solo
Ed Shaughnessy Drum Solo (Tribute to Buddy Rich)
Gene Krupa- Sing, Sing, Sing
Rare Steve Gadd!! 2 good clips!!
Dave Brubek Quartet - Take Five
Kodo - Best Drummer Ever “japanese drums”
ANDY NARELL +TRINIDAD ALL STARS
Babatunde Djembe performance
Ozomatli - Cumbia de los Muertos
Charles Mingus - Moanin’
Sammy Nestico - Belly Roll
El Chicano - Viva Tirado Live 1971
rare silk (I can recall) Spain
Chick Corea - Spain
Adrian Legg
Jose Feliciano
One of my alltime favorite drum beats - Garden Groove by Sublime.
In re: to Zeldar, my top 5 from the ones already given would be:
Green-Eyed Lady - Sugarloaf
Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
Radar Love - Golden Earring
Lowdown - Boz Scaggs
Peter Gunn Theme - Henry Mancini
And, to add a few that I like that aren’t on the list:
If you’re going to say Billie Jean, then you have to name the song that Michael Jackson admitted gave him that inspiration:
I Can’t Go For That (No Can Do) - Hall and Oates
Then, some others:
Hot Music - SoHo
The 900# - 45 King
The Next Movement - The Roots
Eminence Front - The Who
Ain’t Nobody - Chaka Kahn
Does this count?
Bravo! Let’s start looking into the Classical side of this issue. Great first choice there. I had mentioned Ravel’s Bolero earlier, but didn’t go find a good version to link to.
This list is incomplete w/o adding the world’s most famous six-second drum loop - the “Amen Break.”
Used too many times to mention. You’ll know it when you hear it.