For a metaphor to work, you have to understand a concept, and recognize how it applies to a second concept. To understand, “The virus was a Trojan Horse that infected all our systems,” you don’t just have to know the story of the fall of Troy. You have to know what “infected” means. You have to know what “system” means. You have to know what “horse” means. And while you could, possibly, explain all these concepts through additional metaphors, the other person would still need to know the meanings of all the terms in that metaphor, as well. Which, in this alien society, would also be described by metaphor, so the person would have to understand the terms in that metaphor, and pretty soon, you’re in a “turtles all the way down” situation.
When Greek explorers came home from Africa, they tried to describe things they saw there, such as this creature that looked a bit like a horse, but lived in rivers. They called it a “hippopotamus,” or “river horse,” and everyone who knew what a horse was, had some idea what a hippopotamus might look like. But they only knew that because at some point in their childhood, someone took them to an actual horse and said, “See that, kid? That’s a horse.” If an alien species can’t do that, then they don’t have the building blocks they need to build metaphors in the first place. You can’t teach language by defining “hippopotamus” as “horse of the river,” and “horse” as “hippopotamus of the steppes.” You need to have concrete referents there to communicate the basic definitions behind the words that make up the metaphor itself, above and beyond understanding the story the metaphor references.
You do…but they can atrophy and drop off. Think about it next time you “dial” your smart-phone. The word had a literal meaning once (in that context) but does not any longer.
“Larry, with the Seltzer. Moe, when the pants fell.”
No, there is a literal meaning. It’s just the one that used to be non-literal. That’s the point I’m repeatedly trying to make here. If you lose the underlying literal term, then the metaphor loses its metaphority and becomes literal.
Dial once had the literal meaning of a wheel connected to another machine which could be turned to accomplish certain tasks.
Now it has the literal meaning to indicate to a communications device what recipient to connect with.
The metaphor is gone. If you translate “dial” now, you’re not going to refer to a circular machine.
Along the same lines as the metaphor planet, which was a great episode who’s premise doesn’t actually work, a lot of science fiction with space battles uses modern and historical concepts that don’t actually make sense with their technology. It’s really common for SF works to make space ships that can operate independently for extended times (six months or more), have very long or effectively unlimited range, don’t need to go ‘through’ intervening systems, and can’t be easily tracked at interstellar range, and have the ability to capture territory easily if they defeat the enemy fleet. The tricky thing is that if you have that, you don’t actually need border pickets and intermediate bases and supply lines, you can just send your fleet directly at war-winning targets, and conquer/destroy them directly without needing to take systems nearby
Weber’s Honor Harrington series suffers from this, while I like the early books the strategic situation of splitting up fleets and trying to ally for and conquer systems to use as bases doesn’t make any sense - their most sensible strategy would be to get to the point where they have an advantage, then concentrate the fleet for a knockout blow. Babylon 5 does something similar, where the Minbari in the war with Earth are planning to exterminate Earth, but instead of sending a fleet directly to Sol to wipe it out they spend months (years?) taking colonies as bases so they have clear supply lines - even though later events show they can operate at longer ranges without such bases. And those are far from the only ones.
Yes, you can have a metaphor that outlasts the original, concrete meaning. But you still had that original, concrete meaning before you created the metaphor. Per the episode we’re discussing, the alien race is incapable of communicating concrete meaning. They can only communicate in metaphor. Which is impossible, because to get to the metaphor, you have to have the concrete meaning, first.
Also, “dial” in the context of using a telephone was never metaphorical. When phones has a mechanical dial, people talked about “dialing” someone to make a call. This became widespread enough that “dial” acquired a new, secondary meaning: contacting someone through a telephone. When push-button phones came out, this new definition carried over, even though the new phones didn’t have a mechanical dial. But that’s not a metaphor, that’s just definitional drift.
Just as the word ‘Call’ starts as a ‘to speak in a loud distinct voice so as to be heard at a distance’ and by definition creep becomes;
Definition of call
intransitive verb
1
a : to speak in a loud distinct voice so as to be heard at a distance : shout call for help
b : to make a request or demand call for an investigation
c of an animal : to utter a characteristic note or cry
d : to get or try to get into communication by telephone just called to say hello —often used with up
e : to make a demand in card games (as for a particular card or for a show of hands)
f : to give the calls for a square dance
2
: to make a brief visit called to pay his respects called on a friend
transitive verb
1
a (1) : to utter in a loud distinct voice —often used with out call out a number (2) : to announce or read loudly or authoritatively call the roll call off a row of figures (3) : to announce the play-by-play of (a sports event, such as a football game)
b (1) : to command or request to come or be present was called to testify (2) : to cause to come : bring calls to mind an old saying
c : to summon to a particular activity, employment, or office was called to active duty was called to the bar of justice
d : to invite or command to meet : convoke call a meeting
e : to rouse from sleep or summon to get up
f (1) : to give the order for : bring into action call a strike against the company call a pitchout (2) : to manage by giving the signals or orders that catcher calls a good game
g (1) : to make a demand in bridge for (a card or suit) (2) : to require (a player) to show the hand in poker by making an equal bet (3) : to challenge to make good on a statement (4) : to charge with or censure for an offense deserves to be called on that
h : to attract (game) by imitating the characteristic cry
i : to halt (something, such as a baseball game) because of unsuitable conditions
j : to rule on the status of (a pitched ball, a player’s action, etc.) call balls and strikes call a base runner safe
k : to give the calls for (a square dance) —often used with off
l (1) : to demand payment of especially by formal notice call a loan (2) : to demand presentation of (something, such as a bond or option) for redemption The bonds could be called 10 years after issue.
m (1) : to get or try to get in communication with by telephone call the doctor to make an appointment (2) : to generate signals for (a telephone number) in order to reach the party to whom the number is assigned call 911 (3) : to make a signal to in order to transmit a message call the flagship
2
a : to speak of or address by a specified name : give a name to call her Kitty
b (1) : to regard or characterize as of a certain kind : consider can hardly be called generous (2) : to estimate or consider for purposes of an estimate or for convenience call it an even dollar
c (1) : to describe correctly in advance of or without knowledge of the event : predict He called the upward trend of the stock market in February. (2) : to name or specify in advance call the toss of a coin
3
: to temporarily transfer control of computer processing to (something, such as a subroutine or procedure)
But, again, at the end of the episode, one of the aliens formulates a phrase that’s apparently never been uttered before: “Picard and Dathon, at El-Adred.” He’s not simply parroting an existing metaphor; he’s grammatically applying the words “and” and “at” to the situation at hand, combining terms in a new but accurate way.
While I agree with the main point of your post, the Minbari were out to kill every single human in the galaxy and not just earth. It makes sense, considering the fucked up Minbari warrior culture, that they’d leave earth for last in their holy war of extermination.
That’s not supported by events in the show - at the final battle Earthgov was launching evacuation ships to send people off to live with other races, so they (and the other races) didn’t think that the Minbari were trying to kill every single human in the galaxy. There is specific mention of the Minbari needing to secure colonies as bases for supply reasons (though I don’t remember if that’s in the show or in JMS’s comments). The ‘they left earth for last because of tradition/religion’ isn’t supported by anything anyone says in the show that I remember, and still doesn’t fit right with the two year timeframe - it shouldn’t take them long to strike a colony with nigh-invincible ships, wipe it out, and move on, unless they’re delaying to set up forward bases (that they don’t actually need). Yours is not a bad explanation for why they’re doing it, but AFAIR from watching the show 15 years ago it’s a fanwank, not the in-story explanation.
How does the alien know that the bald alien in the red jumpsuit is named Picard? Oh, right, at some point, Picard said, “I’m Captain Jean-Luc Picard, of the Starship Enterprise.” Which the alien clearly understood, since he correctly identified Picard by name at the end of the episode. But if the alien could understand, “I’m Captain Jean-Luc Picard,” which is in no way a metaphor, then he doesn’t need to use metaphors to communicate.
The second half of “Jaws,” is dumb as a bag of hammers:
You’re going to catch this thing?
You’re using barrels with rope?
You’re putting a cage in the water and trying to stick it with a poison loaded harpoon?
You’re trying to shoot an air tank to make it explode?
Quint said at the town meeting he’d catch it and kill it for $10K; the Chief could verify he did just that, the Chief could also get a box of dynamite and settle the beast’s hash in a few hours (the Chief drove a dynamite truck in another movie :D. Plus, he said, I’m the chief of police, I can do whatever I want). Yadda, yadda.
But, it’s really handy to have that music telling you Bruce is somewhere nearby.
I’m not sure whether you’re agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
At the end of the episode, he doesn’t just correctly identify Picard by name; he coins a new phrase – instead of just relaying a metaphor he’s heard before – by correctly using “at” and “and” along with Picard’s name and Dathon’s name before accurately mentioning the name of the place in question.
So while it may seem like they’re The Aliens Who Only Speak In Existing Metaphors, it’d be more accurate to say they’re The Aliens Who Do It Waaaaay Too Often.
I think we’re disagreeing, to the extent that I’m saying the episode is stupid and makes no sense, and I think you’re defending it?
So there was no reason to kidnap Picard and strand him on an alien world with a dangerous creature, thus invalidating the entire plot of the episode. Either the aliens can communicate without metaphors, and they’re just being dicks about communicating clearly, or the aliens can’t communicate without metaphors, which makes it impossible for them to have ever developed language in the first place.
I think they can, but they do it as little as possible. I think they have an absurdly strong preference for allusions, and that they habitually use 'em as often as certain pointy-eared aliens Act Like Calm Philosophers Who Reason Logically – which is to say, no, not always; but, if they could, yeah, it’d probably be ‘always’.
You know, I can accept a certain amount of nitpicking about Darmok and still handwave it. Maybe the Tamarians are totally down with nouns, conjunctions and prepositions, but their grammar and sentence structure is only constructed of metaphors. Maybe their universal translator is better than the Federation’s, so that when Picard introduces himself, their UT converts it into a metaphor and they understand perfectly.
What seems odd to me is that the Tamarians must realize that they are the outliers in terms of how they communicate. They’re cruising around in a starship, they must have encountered other spacefaring races before. They must have encountered the problem of making themselves understood before. But they don’t seem to put a whole lot of effort into solving the problem. While the whole Enterprise bridge crew is in the ready room discussing how memorable scenes from Shakespeare are, the Tamarians are basically saying “Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra” more and more slowly.
There must be a Tamarian metaphor that means “not this fucking Darmok shit again.”
The Children of Tam can all speak in sentences - their language is just like any other. They just choose not to use them. It’s an affectation. Their society is very classist, and the elites all speak only in metaphors. Sentences are for children and engineers.
Just because they are space faring, doesn’t mean they are perfect. They have a blind spot when it comes to language. In a universe with Paklids, the Tamarians aren’t that unbelievable.
So, they’re a bunch of stuck up elitists who are willing to kidnap people - potentially starting an interstellar war - rather than make the effort of communicating in a way that’s comprehensible to their alien neighbors?
That resolves the problems with the episode’s plot, but at the cost of wrecking the tone. The alien captain goes from being a noble figure willing to risk his life to bridge a seemingly uncrossable communication gap, to someone who’s got a stick so far up his ass he’d rather die than unbend just a little, and who doesn’t particularly care who dies with him as a result.
