For young children bi-lingual education is wrong.They will learn english quickly if they speak english only.(at school) At home they can speak what they wish.Been there.
I agree with you, in that we shouldn’t support educating kids in a second language just to retain their “culture”. If they’re here in the US, then their culture includes speaking English.
I’ve heard that for years, LA schools have be basically forcing Hispanic students into bilingual classes. There have been cases where they didn’t even speak Spanish at home, yet were forced to learn in being in the BL classes.
My dad didn’t know English when he went to public school. They sent him right home with a note saying, “We can’t teach little Yevgeny [Eugene]. He doesn’t speak English.” I’m not sure what my grandparents had to do, but Dad did go back after learning enough English. Nowadays, you couldn’t even tell he wasn’t an English-as-a-first-language speaker. His Russian is rudamentary, left at the 5-year-old level.
Now, I do encourage learning languages early as a subject. Young minds absorb language readily, and if you wish them to be bilingual for academic reasons, elementary school is the time to do it.
Um…no. At least, not for several years, AFAIK.
I’m a fifth grade teacher of students who are nonnative English speakers (31 Spanish, 1 Tagalog) in the LA area, and it is illegal to use their native language in the classroom for anything other than slight clarification (I use a and tambien to help them remember the difference between “to” and “too”). This is STATE law. Actual bilingual education–teaching them all of their subjects in their native language–is not permissable, unless parents sign a waiver and request it. In my entire district, and it’s a large one, there are two such “foreign language academies.”
My students are doing better, although I couldn’t exactly say well. Their English is very poor as they use it pretty much only in the classroom; they don’t speak it at home, watch much English TV, and even on the playground, they speak Spanish. There is a long fairly despairing thread about this I posted in MPSIMS about six weeks ago.
But…they are improving, I can say that much.
I guess I never thought of what situation the kids are in in So. Cal.I was 11 years old and plopped in a public school in Madrid and played with only Spanish kids.(no Americans around)Spoke english at home.I was very fluent after 6 months, after a year I dreamed in Spanish.In my twenties I returned and lived 3 years in Barcelona was fluent again after a month.I guess my point was young childrens brains are sponges for language and it would be a shame to miss the chance.
Another thing you might consider - you were 11 and therefore had already benefited from 5 or 6 years of fairly decent education (I’m assuming a bit there, but not too much, I think). You most likely could read, understood basic math, knew basically what school was for, so on and so forth.
You probably fell behind a bit until you gained fluency, but nothing too drastic.
Now imagine a kid starting school. He doesn’t speak English, so you’re going to teach him a new language AND how to read (in ONLY that new language) at the same time. You’re going to teach him completely new concepts (e.g., math) in ONLY that new language. He doesn’t quite know what school is about (after all, he’s not done this before), and he’s not allowed the benefit of actually being able to understand what’s going on and what’s desired of him, because he’s not allowed to speak his own language to find out. Etc., etc., etc. A very similar case can be made for older kids, if they’ve previously lacked formal education.
The purpose of most bilingual education programs in the public schools is to ease the transition for the kids. Don’t throw everything at them at once. Instead, let them learn some things in their own language (e.g., reading) while they’re learning English. I don’t understand why people have such problems with this idea.
My mom teaches young kids (usually 1st through 3rd grades) in a urban public school. She was telling me about a kid form the Middle East who spoke no English. She was worried that the kid would be at a loss and not become educated, especially because there was a definite language barrier between my mom and the child. I mean, how do you teach a child who doesn’t speak your language?
So, she decided to speak with the parents. In talking to the parents, who spoke perfect English, she discovered that it is common for immigrant parents to let their children learn English by immersion in schools and American Culture. My mom was flabbergasted. She couldn’t understand why the parents hadn’t taught the child English. They told her not to worry, that everything would be just fine.
I talked to my girlfriend about this. She is Korean and knows a lot about how Korean parents address this situation. She also said it is very common to let a kid pick up English through school and neighborhood interactions. She said my mom has nothing to worry about with the kid in question.
Sure enough, the kid has picked up so much English that he is at the level of the other kids in the class in most subjects. It seems that through immersion, playing with other children, watching American TV, etc… that kids can usually pick up English very quickly. They are sponges, especially where languages are concerned. I don’t see how coddling them along by teaching in a language other than English really helps in the long run. Seems to me that ‘bilingual education’ could end up as a language crutch, causing a disservice to a child and how well he/she is able to fit into the education system and American society at large.
When we went to school in Spain it was an all day deal,with a few hours off for lunch.We would stay after school and be given extra work in a studyhall type setting,they had school 1/2 a day Sat. too.It didnt occur to me that you are getting Mexican children that might have lived their lives w/o education.I spent a year in Korea as an adult (I know basic phrases only)how do you deal with an Oriental child that does not speak English?Sitting on a mountaintop in the poorest farm areas of Korea,I remember watching the kids walking to school through the morning mist.So my assumtion would be that you would get him or her well educated to that point.
Um. I spoke only french up 'till about five. We spoke only french at home. Furthermore, I was homeschooled until Grade 5. Despite this, I picked up fluency in English merely from homeschooling (taught in french :)) and playground. In every standardized test I have taken, from gradeschool on up to college, I have scored a consistent 97-99th percentile in the categories of english and reading comprehension (granted, my grammar on this bulletin board would seem to belie this, but let it pass).
I can imagine that children who speak spanish, who’s parents have been pushed into spanish speaking ghettos, who go to school with all the other children speaking spanish may have a hard time picking up english.
I don’t think any laws eliminating bilingual education will help with that, however. It will only make it harder for them to advance when it comes time for higher education.
[Moderator Darth Vader mask ON]
Looks like this discussion is staying pretty much an exchange of opinions and anecdotes. If the discussion evolves into something deeper then I’ll move it over to GD. Moving a thread isn’t a punishment, y’know, just finding the home/forum where people of similar interests might find it more readily.
Carry on! Discuss!
Veb
[Moderator Darth Vader mask OFF]
My simple opinion on bilingual ed is that it works for some, and not for others. Therein lies the dilemma.
I have two adult friends who are nonnative English speakers; both are men from Mexico who came to America in their early elementary years. One was immersed, one went into a true bilingual class…and both are adamant that they way they experienced it was best. One needed, desperately, the home language support; he was not as quick a learner as the one who had to “sink or swim.”
Now take into account two of my students from this year, “Carissa” and “Veronica.” Both came to me fresh from Mexico, both spoke no English, and both looked lost, to say the least. Both girls are pulled out of my class first thing in the morning for 30min of English survival skills help (colors, numbers, etc.), both play various computer games I’ve made available to them to help with their language development.
Carissa: was speaking sentences in a month, acing math tests (slightly modified–how can she answer complicated story problems?), and was already becoming an eager participant in the classroom. Unfortunately, she was with me about six weeks and then returned to Mexico–not uncommon, I hate to say.
Veronica: has been with me nearly two months longer than Carissa, and is nowhere near Carissa’s “a-HA!” stage. Says “Good morning,” and “Good-bye,” but nothing else. Rarely participates in class–usually kinda looks at her desk, fiddles. Is badly flunking math, despite modifications–she got one out of twelve on the last test. Zero parent support.
So…Carissa would likely do well simply being immersed in an English classroom; she was already making remarkable progress in a brief time. Veronica, however, sorely needs home language support…I am deeply concerned about how far behind she is getting in math, and her sluggish to stalemated growth in language despite . She is getting very little education out of her class time, and I’m already seeking additionally help for her–all the modifications aren’t working for her yet, so we need to try new ones.
I would think that should be obvious, and it’s inconceivable to me that it’s actually being legislated (by people with no background in child education or language acquisition, furthermore). I mean imagine if someone tried to legislate the whole-language v. phonics debate. Would never happen. The way certain politicians in California are using immigrant children’s education to further their own careers is absolutely sickening.
Let’s not forget that not all immigrants in the American education system are not young children who have the ability to learn two languages at once because they’re learning to use language for the first time. There are older kids - adolescents and teenagers - for whom learning a second language is more difficult.
I’m not making any generalizations about the people in this debate, but more often than not the people I meet who are against bilingual education often have not tried to learn a second language themselves, and haven’t given much thought to the effort it requires from an adult to do so.
Let me posit a hypothetical situation. You are a teenager who’s grown up in Kansas, and one of your parents gets a long-term job in Moscow, but cannot afford to send you to an international school where English is used extensively. How well do you think you’d understand the concepts of algebra taught to you exclusively in Russian?
Bilingual education is not “coddling” students. It is ensuring that they understand the concepts that are being taught in a language they are still learning.
Another anecdote:
Baglady is Japanese, born in Japan. From the very beginning her parent’s decided to send her to a local British elementary school. This school was intended mostly for British nationals (diplomats, corporate employees, etc.).
She showed up on day one speaking one phrase of English, “can I go to the bathroom,” and no Japanese was spoken at the school. She later went to an American high school. She was quickly fluent in English and to this day has the ability to annoy me by slipping into an English accent at will.
May I also point out, in terms of the anecdotal information offered on this thread, that the posters on this MB (and most probably their SOs and friends) tend to run to the, shall we say, above average level?
As Ruffian pointed out, individual abilities can have a huge effect on how well one adapts to total immersion. I have an ear for languages, learn them fairly easily (although I’m not fluent in any for lack of practice), quickly switch to word-image association (rather than translating thru my native language), accidentally pick up accents from people around me, and so on. I’ve no doubt that I would have little trouble with total immersion, even at my cough advanced age cough.
However, my quite intelligent previous spouse had a terrible time in language classes (college level, admittedly). Had no ear for unfamiliar sounds, had difficulty keeping vocabulary straight (picked Hebrew rather than any of the English siblings), etc. At any age over five or six (which IIRC is the upper limit for ‘native bilingual’ language acquisition), total immersion would probably have been a severe detriment to learning.
My current spouse is also quite intelligent, is extremely verbal and loves wordplay, but has dyslexia. Any impediment to learning (like being taught math in words you can’t understand) would have caused real problems.
I agree that total immersion can work well for some kids - but to ban all bilingual education will simply mean that many other kids will be at a severe disadvantage and that some will probably simply not learn at all.