I gotta say, the whole bit about the Bible suggesting a flat Earth has never impressed me much. I have no doubt that the Biblical authors believed the earth was flat, because there is no reason to think they might have believed otherwise. And some passages do imply a flat earth. But every one of them seems like the sort of thing that might also have been written by a modern educated person, especially one making deliberate allusions to earlier writings (like, say, a Sumerian myth), purely for poetic effect. If I were an omnicient omnipotent deity proofreading the revelation I’d handed down to my followers, there are a lot of other bits I, personally, would change, but not most of these.
On the other hand, that bit about a firmament over the earth and the waters above. . . . I dunno, man. I’ve never understood why people who oppose teaching evolution in schools don’t also oppose teaching meteorology.
I think when I was choosing those quotes I selected ones that seem to support overall Sumerian/mesopotamian cosmology, not just a flat earth. I see where my post went wrong. I apologise.
I guess what the important thing should be is, not whether the authors intended that people reading their work believe the world was flat, but whether they themselves assumed a flat earth in most of their writing. I worded my OP poorly I guess. The original thread seems to kept more to the spirit of what I wanted to discuss.
I think all ancient cultures throughout history tried to describe the Earth the way they saw it. The bits about pillars, foundations etc they pulled out of their umm hats.
here is a good summary of the way biblical cosmology is dscribed. I’m not going to try to quote verses out of context as I don’t think that really adds value to the discussion. The above link does an excellent job of analyzing the various references to biblical cosmology.
Raindog I don’t think I said that the bible says explicitly that the authors thought the world was flat. I apologise again if thats what you got from my OP. It certainly appears that the biblical cosmology was assumed based on verses from the Bible.
raindog, from what you have said, it seems you believe the Bible is inerrant. If so, I have a few questions (if not, you can ignore this). I’m not trying to debate these, just asking questions.
In the first creation story, the Bible descibes waters above and the waters below. To what do these passages refer?
Wow, you rarely see somebody so arrogantly and confidently wrong as The Raindog has been in this thread.
I don’t know how many times I can say it dude. The Bible does explicitly say that the earth is flat. It says so implicitly by describing the Sumerian cosmological modela and explicitly by indicating an earth elevated by foundations with water below. It matches precisely with this prevalent model of the universe at that time and place.
I’d like to know on what basis you say that it’s “unlikely” that the Genesis myth would follow the same presumptions as the rest of the ancient Middle East as to how the universe was constructed. I would say that any other inferrence would be not just unlikely but irrational and uninformed.
Be careful who you insult about Biblical and historical literacy around here. Some of us know more than you do.
Sure there are people who believe this. What of it? The fact that the Bible gets it’s facts wrong so much of the time is an issue for those believers not for those who simply point it out.
Who said God put anything into the Bble? I see know reason to believe it’s anything other than a compilation of literature written by (scientifically ignorant) humans. It’s not a reliable source of of scientific or historical truth. We know that for sure because we can prove that it gets its history wrong and its science wrong. We can also show that it’s internally inconsistent and riddled with contradictictions from book to book. That’s not my opinion, that’s an objective fact. If that’s a problem for your divine authorship assumptions then that’s too bad for you. You’ll have to find a way to reconcile Biblical claims with reality or reconsider your assumptions. Either way, it’s not incumbant on anyone else to refrain from showing the errancy of the Bible.
I’m only “prosecuting” the scientific accuracy of the Biblical authors. They followed an antiquated cosmology which did not reflect cosmology. I don’t bleive for a second that I’m prosecuting “God,” and any offense you might take at having facts pointed out to you is of no consequence to me.
And I DO have my facts straight. If you think otherwise, show me where I’m wrong.
Diogenes, from my POV, this is NOT about who knows more than who. With some regularity I get some variation of that from you. That’s not my point or intent. Put simply, the amount of biblical ignorance here is stunning. I’ve gone to great lengths to tell lurkers here to NOT put any more credence in my words than any other poster here. I’ve pointedly told readers to not put any stock in my posts, but to simply take the time to read the various accounts. I’ve probably said it more often than the times you’ve said, “I know more than you do.”
To the extent I have offended anyone, I apologize. But my point remains. The amount of biblical arguments that are blithely thrown about as fact are notable for their error and sheer moxy.
In this thread, BrianJ3 is now saying that the bible is not explicit, and others are as well. But you are, interestlingly enough, using the words that it is explicit. In the very next sentence you say it is implicit. Which is it? We know the answer to that. It does not say it, and you will be putting words in the authors mouth, a practice you have practiced more than once IMO.
If you wish to probe this, we can, using the* bible.* But my memory is fresh from our last encounters. We’ll not be using your non-fluent 2 years of college Greek and gay web sites to augment your argument. It is worth noting, for those who are unaware of the close relationship that I and Diogenes share, that Diogenes is not a Christian and holds a very different view of the bible than someone who would call himself a believer. That bias is more than palpable. And despite your assertion in another stunningly banal thread that has just started in which you say, " We’ve done sevearl threads about this very passage and I’ve analyzed the Greek as nauseum in those threads", you haven’t. My experience is that you do not use the bible in bible based discussion, and while you consistently represent yourself indirectly and directly as being knowledgeable it is true that you do not speak Greek or have a command of the language.
And so, I am dubious as to your posts. You are certainly strident, and no doubt sincere. And I’ve heard people much less knowledgeable heap praise for your knowledge. But they do not fare well to scrutiny. I am not interested in posturing and I don’t care if there are people here who know more about the bible than me. I am more interested in giving the bible a fair hearing; and insisting that a bible based discussion be bible based. (Imagine that!)
In that vein, I’d be interested in hearing the explicit cites that once and for all time will show us all that the bible says the earth is flat. Let me clarify this so there are no doubts: Show me explicitly that the bible says this, not that the bible authors or the “man in the street” were likely to believe it. Show me where the bible states it as fact.
In respect to the OP we might as well start with the cites given at the outset, and frankly the ones that had me a little testy. And they are:
Genesis 1:6-18 Daniel 4:10-11 2 Sam 22:16 1 Sam 2:8
Start there, OK? I’d also be interested in any other cites that show this expicitly. I’ll go out on a limb and say that those will be rather scarce (read: non-existent) and so I’m guessing that we’ll cite some texts and call them implicit.
So you know, and as another poster noted, my feeling overall is “no big deal.” But I’ve seen anough here of posters holding the bible out as an error riddled, biased book of fables. (from you as well…) So, I’m interested in clarifying this issue as it would appear that it has been held up as an example of the bible’s many errors.
Start with Genesis 1:6 and we’ll go from there. to keep the integrity of the discussion (it is after al a discussion about the bible…) I would expect you’d use the bible.
Raindog, learn to read, then go back and read Diogenes’ post again. Diogenes does not contradict himself by using the words “explicitly” and “implicitly”. Rather, he says that the flat earth cosmology is explicitly AND implicitly apparent in the Bible.
He also gives the places in which he sees explicit and implicit references, so why are you asking again?
This is just what some people mean when they say your arguments tend to be arrogant. What could be more arrogant than failing to read an opposing argument?
Epimetheus, the raindog is referring to earlier discussions on possibly anti-homosexual passsages in the Bible, where Diogenes made use of material from pro-gay websites (and where else would you find a good debunking of biblical anti-homosexuality?).
The Raindog
I never really said I thought the flat earth thing was explicitely stated, note the title of this thread.
I’ll agree that my OP may have come across as implying there are explicit references.
As far as explicit references go, no I don’t know of anywhere in the Bible that states “And the LORD reveals that the Earth is flat”.
As I said later, all cites from the Bible where it mentions cosmology taken together paint a picture, as shown in several links from myself and others. They show that the writers assumed a cosmology that was common in Middle East cultures at the time. That being a flat disc covered in a dome that separates the waters above with the waters below. Concepts like ‘ends of the Earth’, corners, God walking across the vault of the sky are common. The concept of the earth resting on pillars and not moving is common, the concept of God shaking the pillars of the earth (causing earthquakes) is common. Stars being fixed to the sky, the sun and moon travelling across the sky and occasionally being told to stop or reverse their paths is common.
When you see each of these verses in context, you don’t really think much of them because you are concentrating on the message of that particular chapter. Details on cosmology are really just background noise. But if you take them all together out of context, you can see the picture they present quite clearly.
Dude, you’re the one who came into this thread calling everyone ignorant and then spouting some completely misinformed opinions of your own. You are wrong. You are factually wrong. The Bible says the earth is flat. That is not a debateable point. To say otherwise is to simply flaunt your own ignorance.
It’s both implicit and explicit. My phrasing in that post was perfectly well articulated and sensible. I do not put words into the text. That is the province of desperate apologists.
It seems you’re still smarting from our last encounter. I assure you, this one will go no easier for you and there will be no need for you to be intimidated by by knowledge of Greek or any scholarly websites such as last time.
Actually, what you perceive as bias is more accurately described as objectivity. Something you clearly lack. I do not pollute my studies with preconceived religious beliefs. This allows me the freedom to consider what the text actually says rather than what I wish that it said.
The hell I haven’t.
I am more knowledgable about the Bible than I am about Greek (since that was my major area of study) but I do have a working knoiwledge of Greek which has been invaluable to me in in studying the New Testament. My knowledge of Greek is totally irrelevant in this thread, though.
This discussion is Bible based. You just don’t like what it says.
I already have told where it’s expklicit. Pay attention. The indication of
water below" the earth is a direct indication of a flat earth. There is no other way to read it, especoially since the rest of the Bible’s cosmology is completely consonant with the standard Mesoptamian worldview.
No need. The flat earth is clearly and unambiguously established by the “water below” description. The debate is decisively resolved on that point alone. Any objections after that are just whiny apologetics.
Koine Greek has been continuously studied for 2000 years. there has never been a time that it was “lost” or unknown. Yes, there are lots of people who are fluent in Greek, at least as a literary language (some of the exact pronunciations have been lost, but not the vocabulary or Grammar).
[emphasis mine] It’s not a debateable point? Are we not in Great Debates? Did I miss something in my reading of the bible that is so basic, fundamental and explicit that it’s beyond debate? And, how did so many others appear to miss it? You’re not trying to obfuscate the truth on this are you? If for no other reason than to correct my ignorance, I would appraciate it if you would bring the [explicit] cites and explanations. Humor me please.
For the sake of clarity I’ll accept the charge and plead no contest. I’ll accept that you don’t put words into the text. Just bring the text, ok?
I didn’t find the last encounter hard or easy. For the sake of those tuning in, it’s this thread. I have no interest in “winning” any debate, (with you or anyone else) and in that thread, at your specific invitation, endeavored to articlulate the bible’s position on the subject at hand. A reader venturing through that thread must dertermine for themselves if I have a reason to be smarting. (that I’m apparently missing) It’s not about you and me Diogenes. It’s about God, and maintaining intellectual integrity in what’s written in the bible.
Perhaps you have considered the texts. But this topic is new to you and I. But because you haven’t mentioned any text, not made any cites, I’m unable to comment on their objectivity.
(This comment is in regards to Diogenes claim, " We’ve done sevearl threads about this very passage and I’ve analyzed the Greek as nauseum in those threads", and my assertion that he hasn’t.)
Well, I based on my comment on my experience with you on this thread. My opinion then and now, was that we hadn’t scratched the surface of that before the question of “why God couldn’t accept a homosexual relationship” was brought up (more than once) with the charge that I was avoiding the question. A separate thread was started to force my hand (…the one I’m smarting over…). In the end, it was never exhaustively discussed and I found the explanations lacking. I will concede that perhaps you’ve discussed it with others besides me before I graced this board. But we haven’t gone over those accounts with any rigor whatsoever.
In the past you have said that you based your arguments on your knowledge of Greek, but at other times have said that you had 2 years of college study, and that you weren’t fluent in the language. From my lurking, it would appear that you are more knowledgable about the bible than most here. Still, in the threads that I have particpated in with you (albeit limited) you have not in my estmation been able to substantiate your claims without imputing both words and intent to the author. It’s also clear that you don’t believe in God, and are not a Christian. (you may correct me if I’m wrong) Those facts are absolutely essential to someone wanting to understand this issue, or any other issue, as to the bible’s POV. (and presumably God by extension) I have no interest in besting you (or anyone else). It would appear that we both have in common an interest in the bible although we are both coming from very different points in the intellectual spectrum. My differences with you however, stems from comments about the bible, that in my estimation, are unsupportable by using the bible. (or at least you haven’t shown that) This discussion is another example.
I won’t take the time to re-review the thread at the minute, but I don’t recall seeing the very first biblical cite to support your clain that the bible explicitly states the world is flat. It seems that “bible based disussion” must, by necessity include the bible as the primary source. Wouldn’t you agree?
I do in fact have a short attention span at times. And, I will reread the thread. But…I don’t remember a single biblical cite from you in this thread. (I may stand corrected after re-reading the thread.) And so, if you have toldme accept my apologies. If not, please accept my insistence that a bible based discussion requires you to use the bible.
First things first. Cite please. (I’m sure that this text is explicit. And then if you are so kind we can focus on that individual text to see if in fact ot says this unambiguously . From there I’m open to other texts that say this as conclusively. In any event, I would encourage any interested person to pick up their bible and see if in fact the bible says,* unambiguously* and explicitly that the world is flat.
Erm, Dio, do you really think “the water below” is an explicit statement of a flat earth. It seems to fit the definition of implicit pretty clearly, that is, it doesn’t actually come out and say “the earth is flat,” but it clearly implies that the earth is flat. Implies, implicit–see the connection. It may be quite unambiguous, but that doesn’t make it explicit. (And actually, I’m not sure it actually is that unambiguous. I mean, sure, a flat earth is the most natural and logical reading, but I don’t think the phrase “the waters below” is incompatable with a hollow, water-filled earth, for example. Nor even with simple underground aquifers and springs, though I admit that it is unlikely that that is all that is intended.)
I will endeavor to improve my reading skills. There’s so little time!
It’s about this time I realized just how poor my reading skills really are. For the life of me I can’t find any specific cites by Diogenes in this thread, with any background information, that identifies both the explicit and implicit texts, scrpiture and verse.
Maybe my poor reading skills or short attention span is leaving people with that impression. In all seriousness, Diogenes seems to have, intentionally or by default, assumed the role of resident bible scholar. I am a proponent of reading the bible, and an even bigger proponent of not getting one’s ration of truth or faith from the internet. It would appear that Diogenes has little interest in faith, (which is cool with me) but I find his assertions about the bible lacking. I’m open to a change of heart, but it will take actual use of the bible to make this happen.
Sorry dude- the Bible does not say so. Anywhere. Got a cite? Now what you can say is the there are quotes from the Bible that seem to match a Mesoptamian cosmology. I accept that. But that doesn’t mean the OT writers thought the earth was flat (of course, it is quite possible they did). If that is “clearly and unambiguously” proof of a flat earth theory in the Bible- then you are using definitions of “clear” and “unambiguous” that are in no dictionary I have read. In fact- that description is exactly the opposite- unclear and ambiguous .
If that is “clear & unambiguous” then the NY Times and the SJ Mercury both clearly and unambiguously support the Earth Centric model of the universe- both papers clearly and unambiguously mention “Sunset” and Sunrise" times on the eather page. Now, of course- the only way to have a “Sunset” or a "sunrise’ is to have the Sun orbit the earth- thus they “clearly and unambiguously support the Earth Centric model of the universe” :rolleyes: :dubious:
What is “clear and unambiguous” is that the OT writers use poetic language that implies a Flat earth and is similar to the Mesoptamian model. Does not “prove” they believed in it any more than using "Sunset/Sunrise’ proves the NY Times and the Mercury news beleive that the Sun goes around the earth.
Again, being the times as they were- it is likely that the ancient Israelites thought the world was flat and that the Sun went around the Earth. And the OT supports this- but it does so using poetic language in in a way that is I]unclear and ambiguous* . Sorry dude.
“You keep using that word- I do not think it means what you think it means”
BrianJ3, my apologies. I didn’t mean to be snarky.
Obviously, I don’t believe that a careful consideration of the bible’e texts indicate that the bible is asserting that the earth is flat.
It is not a minor distinction that it is the bible that is said to be making that claim; a claim that is often used to show that the bible is riddled with errors.
I have never seen a credible cite that says this, both expicitly and unambiguously. It is only reasonable that the higher standard be applied if one is to say with intellectual honesty that the bible unequivocally posits a flat earth view.
