In this thread on Chrstianity and homosexuality, The raindog* posted the following comment:
Raindog was asked repeatedly in that thread to clarify why a belief in a loving God is incompatible with a belief that God would accept homosexual relationships. Raindog demurred to give a response every time and suggested another thread.
So here’s a brand new thread for you, raindog. Please explain why a loving God would not embrace loving, same-sex relationships.
He can and does. He tells me so.
From what I have heard, its the sex part.
Loving is okay, but He made male and female bodies to fit together for a reason, sortof like Lincoln Logs that fit perfectly.
Don’t ask me why, I am throwig out a idea.
I don’t know what God thinks.
Since when is the God of the bible “loving”? Ask a Philistine how loving he thinks Jehova is, if you can catch him between smitings.
Loving God? What Bible have you been reading, pal?
Ours is a vengeful (sp?) God, and those who oppose His laws will be smitten. He likes his smiting, that God fella.
God is a being created by human minds, and his love goes only as far as that of his creators.
Come now!
Thats all I hear, God is love.
Just wait til Libertarian gets here!
What of all the verses such as in say…Peter and the latter Johns?
God put the prostate where it is for a reason as well. 
I would have a lot less of a problem with this attitude if conservative Christians lived up to the standards of sexual morality they would hold me to.
As it is, I have many sins on my hands but having sex with the man I love is not something I can feel bad about. I can’t believe God would make me to desire this and forbid it to me, while offering a lesser burden to heterosexuals by allowing them to marry.
I didn’t answer in that thread because it was not “on point” with the OP, although tangentially related, and I thought it would only distract horribly the discussion at hand. In that thread we spent almost all of our time wrestling around in the mud over the literal translation over 2 Greek words found in 1 Corinthians and never really got around to the interpretational issues of Leviticus, Romans or the other accounts like Sodom/Gomorrah. And while you are a handful yourself, there was another 4 or 5 people who were also posting [at me]. I was not ducking the question.
I would like to answer the text of mine you quoted above first. It is not a direct response to the question, “Please explain why a loving God would not embrace loving, same-sex relationships”, but I think it needs to be addressed.
My point in the quote above is that comments like homosexual love is acceptable to God, in part, because “God is Love” (1 John 4:11,16) or the text that talks of the first command of loving God & Neighbor (Matt 22:37-40) infer (in my perception!) that there remains an open issue as to the legitimacy of homosexual love. Using those particualr scrpitures in that context infer that at best the issue is unclear as to God’s unequivocal approval; at worst it is clearly wrong. In either event however, the strength of God’s love covers over the sin. (or potential sin) .
To clarify further, we wouldn’t say that it is OK to engage in heterosexual sex between married couples because “God is Love.” It would be seen as superfluous; unnecessary. That heteroesexual sex is so widely accepted as being approved by God, a comment like that would go beyong being redundant; it would be confusing.
OTOH, I have heard people use scriptures like this to support loving, sincere sexual relationships among unmarried heterosexual couples and gay couples. It is true that God is love, and it may be true that those scriptures have some relevence to the issue of unmarried hetero or homesexual relationships. But using them as a primary cite to support those views leaves many feeling that they’re being used as an “all purpose” spiritual cleaner, and the user is conveniently sidestepping the texts that deal directly with the matter. The fact is that the bible is not silent on the matter of sexual relationships,hetero or homosexual, either loving or more “commerce based.” If I was gay, or heterosexual and wanting to have a sexual relationship with my girlfriend, I would want to go straight to the texts that relate to my needs/situation and endeavor to see if the bible (and by extension God) supports my views. I would want the same level of legitimacy that heterosexual married couples take for granted, and I wouldn’t want to have to be forced to use qualifiers like “God is Love” (and the dozens of scrpitures that are similiar) to explain my relationship/love. Married heterosexual couples are unemcumbered with having to qualify their relationships in a religious/moral context.
In the end, using scriptures like these leave many feeling that they are “fall back” or “Plan B” scripitures to support a lifestyle that the bible condemns. Others may feel that they are used to “prop up” weak positions or dubious claims and interpretations. One might reason that some confusion about Leviticus/1 Corinthians/Romans and others, coupled with the fact that God is a loving, forgiving God provide the means to legitimize sexual relationships between homosexuals or unmarried heteros.
And so if I was gay, I would first endeavor to bring my life into harmony with God’s requirements as I perceived them, not to bring my perception of God in harmony with my life, no matter how sincere. Heterosexual or homosexual, I would make an earnest attempt to make changes in my life if my honest and humble appraisal of the scriptures revealed that I was in error.
In any event, I wouldn’t want to feel as if my life or relationship was illegitmate. If it was illegitimate I would hope I’d have the strength to make changes. (Phil4:13) But I wouldn’t want to be in a position to use Matthew 22 to explain myself. and if my life is in accordance with God’s requirements, it wouldn’t be necessary.
When was the last time you heard a married hetero couple define their marriage like that?
(P.S. this post doesn’t directly address the question you ended your post with. I hope to get to it soon. But this is an explanation of my feelings on the text you copied above)
So, given your beliefs, if you were gay, would you be willing to be celibate for your entire life? Also, how would you define celibacy? Would fantasizing about sex with men be a sin? If you’re straight, is fantasizing about having sex with any woman other than your wife, if you have one, sinful?
I am a straight, celibate, Christian woman. I don’t regard my fantasies as sinful; I don’t consider the times in my life when I have not been celibate as sinful. I also know that there is a lot more to a marriage than mere sex. I’ve been lonely and I’ve been horny. When I’ve found myself envying people who have been fortunate enough to marry, it’s not the prospect of frequent or mind-blowing sex that I’ve envied; it’s been the simple pleasure of having someone to come home to, of seeing someone show you a smile meant only for you, of knowing there is one person in the world, at least, who knows all your faults, and still chooses to share his time and his life with you. To me, it is the simple affection, companionship, and partnership that is the key element of marriage, not what couples do or do not do in the bedroom. As I must have said 100 times around here, I was taught that I wasn’t worthy of that, and that it was ridiculous for me to hope anyone would want to offer me that. Knowing what that was like, it would be therefore cruel and, by my standards, un-Christian, to deny that to others.
I’ve been hanging out in GD for a few years now. I once made the mistake of asking Diogenes if he were a Biblical scholar (that one, I learned from! :eek: ). I know the discourses on what the Greek does or does not mean. I also know that 150 years ago, it was argued that the Bible justified slavery, and that 50 years similar verses were used to condemn interracial marriage. I also know how the Gospel they read in my church today ended. It’s the same Gospel which was being read in Anglican churches throughout the world. It’s John, 13:34-35, in which Jesus says this:
Limited sinner that I am, I cannot understand how denying other people the privilege of love, affection, and companionship, and telling them that their desire for that is sinful fits in with that Commandment. Where some cite Leviticus, and Paul, I will turn to Christ, for it is on Him that my faith rests.
Respectfully,
CJ
Raindog, you didn’t answer the question. For the purposes of this thread I am not interested in what you think the Bible says about homosexuality. I am specifically interested in your assertion that accepting homosexuality undermines a belief that God is loving. What is the contradiction? Why can’t God accept a same sex relationship and still be loving?
(Especially since God made people gay in the first place)
I appreciate the respect you’ve displayed towards me in your post. I imagined that my views would be in the distinct minority here, and that people like Tobio, Diogenes and DocCathode and others would have very strong feelings on the matter, particularly if any person reading this is gay. I say this because this issue will go straight to the core of a person who is both gay and a practicing Christian.
*And while I will answer your question directly, I would like to say this first: If Diogenes hears nothing else, I would want him to know this. As to the answer to his question, I must say that the bible indicates that God would not, and does not “embrace” homosexual unions as the question frames it up. I say “the bible indicates”, not that God would definitively condemn. (Although it would seem that way) This is not a minor distinction. I’m vicariously offended at the experiences Tobio describes he faced in the church of his youth. (in the thread this thread came from) There’s a famous guy, Phelps I think is his name, who go around with placards that say “God hates fags.” It’s easy to see this guy as a non-Christian, but there are many others though, who are much more subtle, who are just as judgemental and condescending. I speak for my faith in this thread in the singular. I am much more vocal in matters like what the bible has to say on a matter. However, when we get to articles of faith; how that information should applied in our life course, than it is a matter that is personal and I don’t believe a Christian has the right to dicate how another should practive their faith. It’s for this reason that i will qualify things and make liberal use of “IMHO.” In other cases however I will make liberal use of the biblical cite to support the bible’s POV. I’ve noticed that liberal use of the bible will usually earn derisive taunts like “fundie” but I leaned long before I got to this MB that that is a sure sign of intellectual atrophy.
Siege said:
Yes. I included hetero non-married sex in my earlier post as I believe it was relevent. FWIW, I am male, straight and unmarried. Other posters have noted the hypocrisy of so called Christians who blast homosexuals and yet commit “fornication.” I agree with them. I own the largest “glass house” on the block, but I believe that sex (for me) without the benefit of marriage is a violation of biblical principles and so I am celibate, and would hope to remain celibate my entire life if I do not remarry. (although I would like to) It’s not easy.
The absense of sex between two adults. To stay on point, we’ll not dwell on bestiality or pedophilia, which are topics of their own.
Yes, using Matthew 5:27-28, 2 Pet 2:14, Job 31:1, and 2 Sam 11:2. (Also see Ex 20:14, De 5:18, Luke 18:20 & Rom 13:9)
Understanding how powerful these things are, I would hope to display the strength and maturity needed to not dwell on these things; as letting those thoughts fully mature often leads to behavior. (See Matt 15:19 & Jas 1:14,15)
I can relate to that intimately.
Diogenes intellect is manifest. But, Jesus’s disciples were common men. God has not always used the “intelligensia” to further his purposes. (Matt 11:25, Lu 10:21, 1 Cor 1:27) In my life, the people who most displayed Christian values were the ones who possessed the most humility rather than the most raw intelligence. (Mark 10:43) I am coming to know Diogenes and if we are both in agreement as to the value of Christs’s model, we will find some common ground in the bible, even if we don’t always agree.
Nor am I in a position to deny anyone, anything. And it would seem that something that feels right, must be right. However the bible gives some insight as to how treacherous our own reasonings and heart can be. (Pr 3:5, Jer 10:23, Jer 17:9)
I would submit, that it is God’s opinion that matters before my own.
As well—
Matthew.
Diogenes the Cynic said:
Diogenes, my views will be based on what the bible has to say on the matter. That having been said, I don’t believe that I made any assertion that accepting homosexuality undermines a belief in a loving God. And, as the question is re-framed I am not sure if you’re referring to man’s perspective or God’s.
Nonetheless, I don’t believe God can’t accept a same-sex relationship. Rather, it would appear that he doesn’t or won’t.
And so, I do not understand the contradiction as stated. God is loving. And he is also a God exacting exclusive devotion and adherence to his standards. His love doesn’t preclude him from both setting down requrements for us to follow, and it certainly doesn’t paralyze him to the ability to mete out the consequences for those who defy him.
And, if one is to believe that homosexuality is aberrent behavior, one can only say that God made homosexuals within the context of other aberrent behaviors, such as adulterers, idiolaters, drunkards etc.
Must run now. Will expand later if I can.
Under your reasoning, a loving God also doesn’t accept people who work on the sabbath or wear mixed fabrics.
The Raindog
Is all your knowledge of G-d from the Bible? You’ve never had a firsthand experience? I ask this in complete seriousness.
In the thread “Christianity and homosexuality - please explain” this was discussed. In post #39 of that thread I posted my views on the matter, including biblical cites.
In short, that is a requirement of the Mosaic law. I believe that there is more than compelling biblical evidence to support that we are no longer under the requirements of the Law.
We may have different views as to “first hand” experience. I have had many experiences in which I felt that God’s blessings, or “presence” were felt by me. There have been many times in which I felt an intimate bond or communion with him, especailly during trials. Some of those experiences were poignant, and powerful to me.
There were other times in which I felt he allowed me to suffer as a means of refining my faith, or simply to allow me to suffer due to my own bad judgements. In every case, my appreciation for him grew, even if it took time to fully realize the lesson.
I have come to believe that humility, honesty and a spiritual hunger were necessary for me to begin to bring my life into harmony with his will and purposes, and to seek out his views on how I should live my life. (rather than seeing how I could fit him into my views as to how it ought to be.)
Yes you did. I quoted it in the OP. Here it is again:
As you can see, “undermine” was your word, not mine. Are you now backing off of this statement? It seems to me like you think there’s some sort of contradiction between a loving God and an acceptance of homosexuality.
Whether it “appears” that way is a matter of debate, but I would submit that a god who creates homosexuality and then punishes his creations for being the way he made them is neither rational nor loving and is completely unworthy of worship.
A God who “metes out consequences” (in this case eternal torture) for people who engage in loving relationships is not a God of love. The contradiction is obvious.
And why should one believe that? Every bit of research shows that it’s a perfectly normal orientation, nothing “aberrent” about it. By contrast, I would say that a life of celibacy is quite unnatural and aberrent.
This senetence makes no sense. Homosexuality is an innate orientation. It is not a choice, not an act of will and therefore can’t be a sin unless God is a complete tool.
Actually, even a God who would want to burn people for idolotry or alcoholism is a complete tool and not loving at all.
I have known people who did choose to be gay.
i have also known people who stopped being gay.
But this is what I’m doing. I didn’t think ‘Well, this is what I decided. How can I twist the Bible to support it?’. I thought ‘This is the will of the Lord, as He has revealed it to me personally. It doesn’t match with this verse in the Torah. How can this be?’.
(Note that being Jewish ;j , Paul, Corinthians, etc weren’t really a concern for me)