I have a simple question…
Let’s say a man always felt awkward around women. As a matter of fact, he can’t remember a time he has ever been attracted to a woman. But believing homosexuality to be a sin, he shrugs it off and continues dating, searching for a perfect mate.
Well one day this man met another wonderful man. Things started as a friendship, but it soon grew to love. The love was as intense if not more so then husband/wife love. The men would die for each other, will do anything for each other. It’s as pure a love as two mortal could accomplish. Would their love be considered a sin?
If so, why does God discriminate against love?
If God discriminates against certain love would that imply he is not always just?
If God is not always just, would that imply that he makes mistakes?
If He makes mistakes, would that imply that’s He’s no real God at all?
Isn’t God and Christ about Love, first and foremost? So why is some love ok, and some is not? If it’s true love, how could it come from anywhere but God?
On a related note…is there any specific scripture verses from the NT that explicitly states that homosexuality is anymore of a sin then other heterosexual sins? (ie adultry, fornication)
I’m not exactly gay myself, but if I fell in lov with a guy I wouldn’t complain (I should tell you about this guy named Sam… hoo-wee, was he hot!)…
ANYWAY… enough with my rantings… ::ahem::…
As far as my experiences dictate, conservative christians deny that a man can love another man. However, there are quite liberal christians that I also know that say that, yes, a man can love another man. I never called them on all the scripture verses that “say” homosexuality is evil, but maybe I will… not to attack them or anything, just because, well, you’ve piqued my curiosity, Pepper.
This is a tough topic. It would have been so easy if Jesus would have said “Ya’ll, don’t screw around with your own gender, all right?” But due to multiple translations over 2000 years with all the different people from different cultures, it’s only due to hard work and extensive research that the bible stays as true to the original words as it does. Even then, men with 50+ years in theology and just as many studying Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic disagree on small points of theology. This is one point.
Strictly speaking, he didn’t come out and say “Dudes, this is so wrong. You’ll crash and burn for it.” He spent chapters and probably years preaching basically the same two ideas: Love thy neighbor as thy self, and Love one another. He spoke volumes on Hypocrisy (something everyone should read once or twice, it spooked me just reading it now.)and chapters rebuking the pharasees for being smart arsed theological hair splitters.
The message boils down to this; God loves us. That’s it. Personally, I’m not fond of homosexuality, but when we all get to Heaven (and that’s not in the debate right now :)) we will all have sins to answer for. No one sin is larger than the others, lying will be judged just as bad as murder.
He didn’t come to condemn, he came to save. I’ll leave the judging up to God.
“Love the sinner, hate the sin”, eh, Saint Zero? Makes sense, of course… I, for one, see no point in christians persecuting homosexuals, if they knew that God would eventually get around to that… seems kinda hypocritical on their part, too, trying to remove the mote from their neighbors’ eye while ignoring the beam in their own.
I can certainly understand the desire to keep people from homosexuality, though, if they truly consider it to be a sin. However, it’s easy for innocent admonishings to become harassment and persecution.
Love they neighbor like thyself? Sounds like a prescription FOR at least some types of homosexuality. Haven’t exactly performed vaginal intercourse on myself lately, but sure would be qualified to spank some other guy’s monkey!
On a more serious (tho undoubtedly cynical) note, I feel a significant element of at least the most conservative christian ideologies is judgment of others, intolerance of differences, and a desire to consider themselves as “better” than others. Hey, there has to be something that makes them uniquely qualified to get into heaven! Certainly God wouldn’t simply wish to welcome all decent folk, whether they believed in Christ, Jehovah, Buddha, the earth goddess, humanism, etc.
there are some verses in the Bible that discuss the issue of same-sex relations. (don’t have the cites right now, as I’m off to work - I believe in Leviticus, Romans and II Corinthians).
The question is how to interpret them.
A literal, fundamentalist view just says “homosexuality is a sin.”
Modernist views of interpretation say, “what was the social context of these passages? how do they fit together with the great commandment of ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’ ?” and most importantly, “what do they mean to us today?”
If you haven’t already looked at it, you may want to look at Scripture Verses, particularly the exchange between matt_mcl and akatsukami.
My bottom line (gotta get to work) is, please don’t judge all Christians by what the very vocal fundamentalist gay-bashers say is God’s word. (That God, he gets blamed for everything.)
Just as we fight ignorance here, a christian version of this would have the tagline “Fighting Hypocrisy since 30AD. (It’s taking longer than we thought)”. Not to belittle Uncle Cecil, but it is the major pitfall. Doesn’t it seem we all like to feel superior to everyone else? People want to have something over their fellow man, when the primary commandment is “Love thy neighbor as thy self.”
I purposely didn’t mention sex in the OP, because I don’t want to talk about homosexual sex. I realize that sex in most long term loving relationships is expected, common, and only adds new dimensions to the already exhisting love. However, I don’t want to focus on that aspect of relationships. I just want to know if the LOVE is ok. It’s probably pretty acurate to assume that when two people choose to live their lives together, they are engaging in making love. But if we remove that element, and love is just love, then is there still a problem?
I don’t go around spreading my opinion, if that’s what you mean. I’m not 100% sure I’ll make it to heaven. If someone does ask (and it’s only come up twice, I should have pointed that out) I’ve been honest, and we all got along fine.
I care because I’m not keen on seeing people suffer for eternity. If I’m right. If I turn out to be wrong, well, I didn’t lose anything
Hm. Define love. Like I tried to say (and I’m being remarkably incoherent in stating what exactly I mean here, so I’ll probably stop after this, for fear of looking like a slavering fundamentalist) I don’t think it’s clear in any case. I’m not sure. I guess that’s the simplest way to say it. Depending on definition/translation there are instances where it comes up (the roman centurion, being one) and he simply healed the son without commentary on any lifestyle. shrug I simply don’t feel comfortable making a judgement call on someone elses lifestyle.
Define Love? Ok, I’ll give it a shot.
Those of you who are happily married…how do you feel about your partner? Would you love them without the sex? Would you love that person if they had a horrible accident or disease and could no longer engage in sex? I would assume yes. So, do Christians who are anti-homosexual against the SEX or the Love? Would they be willing to say homosexual love is ok as long as it doesn’t involve sex?
The name of this country is United States of America, not kingdom of God. In this country, anyone who doesn’t violate other people’s rights and who is not commiting any crimes, ought to receive equal protection under the law.
It’d be the eqivalent that two lifelong best friends share for each other (same sex). Having sex with one another wouldn’t cross their mind. But, no doubt, they’d take a bullet for one another.
The most interesting thing is that the one person in the Greek Scriptures/New Testament that discussed most extensively about love in his writings, Paul, seemed to have had awkward relationships himself. Maybe it was due to fact that he was a hunter of Christians before he saw the light, and may have not have easily got over the guilt.
Anyway, about love and Christianity. Love itself was not attacked by Paul. Sexual activity (fornication) was. Christians who can discern that developed the notion “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” He effectively separated sex and love, even among heterosexual couples, saying that if you have to have sex, then get married.
The separation of love and sex, suggested by Paul, is not followed by the majority of people, even Christians. This, coupled with the proscription of those who engage in homosexual activity from gaining access to the Kingdom of God, resulted in the concept of man ‘loving’ man turning into an abhorrence. The layer of intimate non-sexual friendship between heterosexual men, that is taken for granted between women, is gradually dminished, and is replaced by a group engaging in shared activity.
And I’m sure any married couple would be soooo flattered to hear you refer to their lifelong loving commitment to each other as “lifelong best friends” alone.
Whattabunchacrap. I don’t want a “best friend,” I want a husband, which means the whole shebang - best friend, lover, companion, fights, family, home, pets, the works. To pat a gay couple on the head and say, “oh, what lovely friends you two must be” is an insult to every loving couple that ever existed.
In regards to love, as the Bible defines it, the greatest is:
John 15:13 - Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Doesn’t say anything about it having to be for the opposite sex, but that love of friends, and the willingness to sacrifice all for that friendship is the greatest love.
[hijack]Esprix, before you go off on vandal, you should note that there is nothing in his post that says the two people not having sex are gay. The post he was referring to did, but it is a separate example. Whatabunchacrap.[/hijack]
Like I tried to say (and I’m being remarkably incoherent in stating what exactly I mean here, so I’ll probably stop after this, for fear of looking like a slavering fundamentalist) I don’t think it’s clear in any case. I’m not sure. I guess that’s the simplest way to say it. Depending on definition/translation there are instances where it comes up (the roman centurion, being one) and he simply healed the son without commentary on any lifestyle. shrug I simply don’t feel comfortable making a judgement call on someone elses lifestyle.