This is a continuation of the “Christianity and Love, Part 2” thread. It went all wiggy around page 5 and wouldn’t show new posts, so I’m recreating the last few (meaningful) exchanges in case anyone had any comments but was unaware that any new posts were made.
FriendofGod:
Esprix:
Polycarp:
andros:
Polycarp:
now do you see why I didn’t really want to address this topic? I knew and fully expected that this would be the reaction I would get. I’m genuinely shocked that the phrase “homophobic” hasn’t been hurled at me yet!
It’s probably pointless, but I do want to correct some conclusions you drew from my comments:
One, you said: “You have just indicted him and his gay Christian friends as people who can never find the peace and love of Christ.”
No, I clearly said that anyone, gay or not, can find the peace and love of Christ if they submit their lives to Him and turn from their sins.
Second, you said: "You see, they are of same-sex orientation. They did not choose to be; they found themselves as that. It is not a choice. "
I did address this at one point … but I do believe gay people are sincere when they say this. But I also believe the alcoholic is sincere who feels compelled to drink and feels that they have no choice. We all are compelled to sin in one way or another. We all have a sinful lifestyle that “naturally” fits us, whether it’s the gay lifestyle or any other sinful lifestyle. In a way it’s true to say “it’s not a choice” – we are ALL helplessly trapped in a lifestyle of sin unless we turn to Christ.
Third, you said: "Jesus will save you; all you need to do is deny who you are. "
Wrong. The TRUE statement is: “Jesus will save you, and CHANGE ‘who you are’ into a whole new, clean, pure, whole person.” This is true for a gay person, a straight person, a prostitute, an alchoholic, you name it.
Fourth, you said: "But heterosexuals have an out you would deny homosexuals: they can fall in love, marry, and find every kind of fulfillment, not merely sexual but intimacy, companionship, support in time of trouble, joy in time of gladness. According to you, this is denied people who are oriented toward others of their own sex. "
Not only is it NOT denied, but God wants to GIVE it to the homosexual just like He wants to give it to us all. God can give self-worth to a prostitute … He can give a pornographer a clean heart … and He can give a homosexual love for the opposite sex. He is a miracle worker. “For nothing is impossible with God” (Lk 1:37).
I’ve shared this before, but I’ll share it again in this context especially. From 1991 - 1993 I had two roommates while living in Atlanta, one of whom was a formerly gay man. He had been into the gay lifestyle all throughout the 80s and all the way until December 1990, when God came into his life and made him a new person.
Now make no mistake about it, as I said in my last post, this man struggled for a good couple of years with his past. There was instant repentance when he got saved, but he still struggled with his desires for a few years. But slowly, GENTLY, just as God always does, God began to heal this guy and change him from the inside out.
In 1992 he met a woman in our church and fell in love. In 1993, the reason he left our apartment was … he got married. He has had a beautiful marriage and has two beautiful children. The point is … if someone is willing to submit their desires to Christ, He can do ANYTHING! There is no exception. You may THINK you’re stuck with your desires for life, but you don’t have to be.
Obviously, for someone who doesn’t WANT to come to Christ but WANTS to continue living the gay lifestyle, all of the above is pretty meaningless, understandably. If you don’t WANT to change, knowing God can change you doesn’t mean much of anything.
Finally you said:
"But you did not stop there. It would appear from the subtext of your post that only born-again Christians can act morally. That no atheist, agnostic, UU, Jew, Moslem, or anyone else can take any action that is not selfishly oriented. That none of them has any ethical base for their life. "
I’m not sure where you’re drawing this from, so I can only guess. In rereading my post, I am guessing that you are referring to this quote:
"Point #2: there is an entirely different kind of person out there as well . . . someone who doesn’t claim to be a Christian and who lives a LIFESTYLE of some brand of sin, be it adultery, sex outside of marriage, homosexuality, or some other thing.
To be honest, I have no problem whatsoever with someone in this category. If you aren’t a Christian, I ASSUME you will do whatever you want to do! That’s pretty much the definition of a nonChristian … someone who runs their life by their own rules. "
This doesn’t say they CANNOT act morally … I happened to list sexual sins because that’s the topic of the moment. I think some nonbelievers back in the 1950s lived somewhat sexually moral lifestyles because it was the way society was at the time (ie, not out of a relationship with God).
I didn’t say a nonChristian couldn’t take any action that wasn’t selfishly oriented. I didn’t say that none of them have an ethical base.
I am merely saying this … a non Christian by definition runs their own life and does what THEY think is right. They do what THEY want to do and what THEY believe. I know a nonChristian who right now is serving in the Peace Corps (a cousin of mine). She has a very kind heart and is very nice. But she has a sin nature like the rest of us – many times a person’s sins are internal and not so “obvious” to the outside world.
My point is … a nonChristian will do whatever they want to do. If it’s saving baby seals, that’s what they’ll do. If it’s partying all weekend long, that’s what they’ll do. If it’s sex outside of marriage, that’s what they’ll do.
In summary: a nonChristian thinks that they can run their own life just fine, so they don’t see a need to submit it to God.
I’m sorry that my post made you sad Polycarp. I am sad too, and I don’t say this harshly toward you at all. I cannot water down the gospel just to make it more acceptable to more people. Remember the rich young ruler, Poly? His sin addiction was money and greed. Jesus challenged him to give up every penny he had and the guy refused. In fact, he was very sad as he walked away. I’m sure Jesus was sad too … but He didn’t change his message one iota. He didn’t go running after the guy saying, “Wait! Let me give you the ‘lite’ version of the gospel!”
If you change the gospel, it’s not really the gospel anymore.
The gospel is simply this: Jesus will save your life and give you a brand new life if you come to Him, receive what He did for you on the cross, and willingly submit your life to Him and turn from your sins. It’s that simple.
Um, pardon me? Let us look at three people, all of whom have chosen to follow a moral code: an atheist, a Jew and a Christian.
The atheist has thought about it and believes the Kantian universal imperative (look it up, FoG 
) is the optimal way to live his life. He lives his life according to what he considers its dictates.
The Jew has thought about it and believes Moses gave the Jews God’s laws to follow, and they are the optimal way for her to live her life. She lives her life according to what she believes is God’s law.
The Christian has thought about it and believes that Jesus was God and died for his sins, and gave man laws to follow, and these laws are the optimal way for him to live his life. He lives his life according to what he thinks is Jesus’ teachings.
In what way is the Christian different than the atheist and the Jew?
We all choose a moral code, FoG. It may involve following Jesus. It may involve obeying the mitvot. It may involve believing in the rights of animals to be unmolested by humans. Christians do what they want to do, too–it is just that what they want to do is presumably to follow Jesus. But you cannot say that the moral codes of all others are whims, and yours are commands. NonChristians take their moral code quite as seriously as any Christian.
Just so no one has to look it up…
The Kantian moral imperative is simply a modified golden rule. It is, essentialy, “Don’t do unto others as you wouldn’t have them do unto you.” Or as Kant puts it, “Will that your actions be universal actions.” In other words, don’t steal, drive drunk, or set fire to things unless you desire to live in a world in which everyone steals, drives drunk, or sets fire to things.
Hope that helps. Please continue your discussion
Larry!!! I’m trying to get FoG to do some independent research here! Do you do all your kid’s homework for them too?
[Fixed annoying typo. ::sigh:: I’m really starting to miss my ability to ghost-edit. 
--Gaudere]
[Edited by Gaudere on 07-11-2000 at 09:35 PM]
Ah, Guadere. As usual, love your probing questions.
In your comparison, here’s what you said about Christians:
"The Christian has thought about it and believes that Jesus was God and died for his sins, and gave man laws to follow, and these laws are the optimal way for him to live his life. He lives his life according to what he thinks is Jesus’ teachings. "
I would say it in the following way. The all-caps part is the main distinction between the atheist and the Jew:
“The Christian has thought about it and believes that Jesus was God and died for his sins, and that God deserves our full and total devotion. He/she therefore GIVES UP CONTROL of his/her life and submits it to God, forever giving up the “right” to make his or her own decisions. The Christian SUBMITS HIS/HER LIFE to the living, breathing, one true God and follows after Him.”
In other words, “laws” and “teachings” really have nothing at all to do with it. It’s a VERY common misconception that Christianity is a bunch of “do’s and don’ts”.
Do you know what I honestly believe the whole point of the Sermon on the Mount was? It WASN’T “here’s how to live a good life, now go do it”. It was … “Here’s the standard of a godly life, and NONE of you can do it!” As I said before, “The Christian life isn’t hard, its impossible.”
In other words, Christianity is, at it’s essence, a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with an individual, Jesus Christ, who, oh, by the way, just HAPPENS to be the creator of the universe and YOUR PERSONAL creator!
Now make no mistake, God gives principles of godliness all through the Bible - how to raise godly kids, how to have a healthy marriage, how to find the right career, etc etc. But “doing those things” is not the essence of Christianity. It’s FOLLOWING a person. It’s GETTING TO KNOW a person. And ONLY through getting to KNOW Jesus can we ever hope to walk out ANY part of the “Christian life”.
In other words, I would not at all summarize my beliefs as “He lives his life according to what he thinks is Jesus’ teachings.” I would say, “He lives his life for Jesus and follows Him”. Nothing more, nothing less. Actions FOLLOW, but aren’t at the heart of it at all. Actions PROVE that you have a relationship with Christ, but they aren’t at the heart of a relationship with Christ.
Hope that helps.
One last quote: "Christians do what they want to do, too–it is just that what they want to do is presumably to follow Jesus. "
Well, SOMETIMES Christians do what they want to and it gets them into MAJOR trouble! But hopefully, most of the time, we are submitting our lives to Jesus and doing what HE wants us to do … and thus our lives are at peace.
I mean, technically I guess you can say “I’m doing what I want to do … I’m following Jesus”, which is what I think you’re trying to say. But what I want to do is … GIVE UP THE so-called RIGHT to do what I want to do, and give that right over to Jesus. I hope that wasn’t too much of a spaghetti-twirl of words.
Anyway, hope that clarifies things. I look forward to your next challenge with bated breath! 
PS Thanks Larry for the tip! Interesting, I hadn’t heard that before. And Gaudere, don’t give Larry a hard time! What better place to learn what atheists believe than on an atheist board?
You know, things don’t become any more logical when you put them in all-caps, FoG. 
You do what you want–in this case, choosing to give control to Jesus, just as a Jew chooses to obey the mitzvot, or an atheist the categorical imperative.
Yes. What you are doing is you want to follow Jesus. Therefore you do what you really want–follow Jesus, allow Him to control your life–and give up some things that you want less. It’s not different than a Jew who wants a bacon cheeseburger, but wants to follow the mitzvot more. Nor is it different than an atheist who wants to go on a vacation, but wants to give money to charity more. A Christian can also at any point take back control from Jesus–otherwise a Christian would never do anything sinful. They must continually choose to allow Jesus to control their lives, right? Atheist, Jew, Christian–they all choose to do what they think is best and most desireable. See? If you want to get into why some “wants” are considered more moral than others, that’s a whole 'nother discussion. But the point I was trying to make is that just because you want to do something does not necessarily make it immoral or amoral, and Christians and nonChristians both want to follow their moral code (or give their lives to Jesus); if they didn’t at some point desire to follow their moral code or give their lives to Jesus they simply wouldn’t do so. Therefore saying nonChristian morality is inferior because “nonChristians do what THEY want to do” is rather silly, since Christians also do what THEY want to do–give their lives to Jesus.
This isn’t an atheist board, at least not in the sense that the LBMB is a Christian board. Our mission is “fighting ignorance”, not promoting atheism; we do tend to have our share of skeptics, and many atheists are skeptics. We also have a healthy mix of many religious beliefs here (although a bit bare on the Buddhists and Hindus ). And the Kantian imperative is not a specifically atheist thing, and more than the Golden Rule (“Do unto another what you would have him do unto you, and do not do unto another what you would not have him do unto you”–Confucius, ~500 BCE) is a Confucianism thing. Say, I seem to recall Someone you know saying something very similar…
Thanks, Gaudere, for the new thread. I hope my several posts weren’t the cause.
Polycarp, just give it up. FriendofGod’s god is demanding, retributional and mired down in his doctrines and that silly book, whereas ours is more concerned with love and what is in our hearts.
After all, “He lives in Kansas - isn’t that punishment enough?”
Esprix
Naw, not your fault, 'Sprix. I think we’re just too wordy for Vbulletin. I’ve asked for a fix on their help boards, but in the meantime I’ll just have to start locking up threads that go bad. If anyone notices a thread not displaying posts, send me and David an email and we’ll do what we can.
Friend o’ God is making the presumption that his understanding of the will of Christ is what applies to every soul. I will not make that assumption. He feels that he must encourage you to abandon sin, because he feels that true faith requires that you turn away from sin, and to the Lord. While I feel that you should turn from sin, and to the Lord, I will not join in describing what is sin, and what is not, for you.
I think that shopping is a sin. I thing that eating food that you do not need for life and health is sin. I think that wearing expensive clothes in a world where someone wears rags is a sin. But I will not condemn you for your sins. Jesus had the chance to condemn a woman for her sins, and he did not. I certainly will not. Nor will I create a list for you to follow to be sinless enough to be a true Christian. I certainly will not advise you to follow the advice of Christians about how to live your life, or tell you that the Bible will provide all the answers to the decisions of life for you.
What I will tell you is that I believe that Jesus will lead you from this world. From all of it. From the trials of flesh, and the joys of the world, into the eternal joy of spiritual love. In the journey, you will come to see the joys of the earth and the pleasures of the flesh as pale imitations of the true joy of eternal love. It is not about sin. It is about love. You must live your life, and the love you make in this world will be your own true creation. But Jesus can reach your heart, if you will let Him. The Bible can help you learn of Him. Theology is not faith, and religious leaders are leaders of men, here on the Earth. Don’t follow Christians. Follow Christ.
I can not go on, for I seem to have a beam in my eye, and cannot see well enough to describe what splinter might be in yours.
But I encourage you, it is not whether you sin, but whether you can love. Be not afraid, He is with you, and His love is greater than any sin.
Tris
There is nothing more beautiful than those butterflies that flutter by every now and then.
In my opinion, Jesus gave us the ideal categorical imperative: “Be perfect”.
Y’all just don’t get it.
The problem is that all of us are trying to interpret the Bible, while FriendofGod alone know what it REALLY means! If we just listen to him instead of all those who have studied for years on the subject, he will kindly guide us ignorant heathen out of this Ast message board and back into the light of the LBMB. So quit trying to read the Bible on your own, forget everything that you’ve read about and studied on the subject, and let FriendofGod lead you to the TRUTH!
I’ve got to stand with FriendofGod on this one. But let me explain where I’m coming from.
I believe that the Bible is the Word of God. While it may not spell out explicitly the answer to every question you could have, it’s the only place to start if you’re searching for truth.
The Bible, in numerous places, tells us that homosexuality is a sin. FoG noted at least a few of those. It also, in various other places, tells us about all sorts of other things that are sin.
We were designed by God to live in covenant with Him. But we have a sinful nature. We like to sin, desire it, each of us in many different ways, giving each of us many personal weaknesses. Mine may be lying, someone’s might be stealing, others, addiction, still others sexual sins.
The decision to turn to God is rarely done with an excitement about giving up sin. It’s done, as far as I can say, from a desire to be whole, or to end pain.
When we turn our lives over to Christ, he washes us clean and gives us a new nature, but we’re still stuck with these bodies and habits from our old lives. God starts to work with us to change those.
He makes us aware of our sin, perhaps not all of it at once, and gives the will and desire to change those behaviors and thoughts that are sinful. It’s not a matter of denying your identity, but of allowing God to perfect it.
So we’re all here, working towards perfection, but all of us imperfect. We all have sins that seem to be awful to rid ourselves of, and those that we have a difficult time convincing ourselves that they’re wrong. There are many things I do, daily, that I know, intellectually, are wrong. That knowledge hasn’t made it into my behavior, or sometimes even to my heart. God is contintually bring up small things, that I didn’t know or acknowledge as sin, and working to rid me of them.
So I guess, to me, asking how a homosexual can be a Christian is no different than asking how a liar can be a Christian. We are because God loves us, and because we’re not complete yet.
I, for one, am sick and tired of being compared to adulterers, prostitutes, shoplifters, liars, sexual compulsives, alcoholics, thieves, pornographers, mixed-fabric wearers, pork eaters, sin thinkers, ad nauseum.
Thank you, Trisk, for being a voice of reason. You and Polycarp make a good team.
Esprix
Slythe, I do have to give FoG credit – he does appear to be trying to grasp what other people have to say. Of course he interprets it in the context of his worldview, which includes a Bibliocentric theology. But, heck, we all do just that. Your own posts on matters religious are written from the perspective of “there ain’t no God” or at least “if there is, he sure as heck is good at hiding!” Mine are written from a theocentric worldview that would be at variance with you on the question of why evolution happens, though we’d be at agreement on how it happens.
And of course both FoG and Erica are at pains not to target homosexuals as “especially” sinful – we all are, in their estimation.
But the “slippery slope” argument applies here. If I am wrong in my Fletcherism (and I fully admit that is what it is), then all the rules have to apply. Erica, have you ever said anything in church? Have you duly repented of it? Is your hair properly long? Have you ever cut it short? Did you repent of that? Do you wear a hat to church as Paul insisted? Both of you, have you ever eaten pork? Did you repent of it? Do you ensure that the meat you do eat was properly killed so that you do not consume the blood? (CMKeller, Zev, and Dex can recommend good kosher butchers, I’m sure.) Have you ever worn clothes made of two different fibers? Did you duly repent of that? Have you stoned an adulteress lately? Do you believe the Communion bread and wine (it does not say “grape juice”) is Jesus’ flesh and blood, as he clearly specified? Do you believe Jesus as the Good Shepherd would win the Montana Sheepherders Competition? Have you truly loved God with all that is in you? And your fellow men as
yourself? Do you think Esprix could be convinced of that last? Do you think I could? Do you properly refer to Jesus’ mother as “Blessed” as called for in Luke 1? Have you tried to make every sacrifice to attend Passover in Jerusalem? Does you righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees? Or are you getting the niggling suspicion, after this dialogue, that it is precisely that of the Pharisees? Are you perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect? These are all Biblical commands. You don’t get to pick and choose.
Or maybe, just maybe, you can accept that God loves you. And all men. Homosexuals included. Not with various little provisos. Just as they are. Because it is by His Grace that we are saved, not by keeping a code of laws.
Esprix, I shall therefore save you from hearing my really awful joke regarding the comparison of ‘homosexuals’ and ‘pork eaters’.
Hey! You with the rocks! Keep away from Drain Bead!
Yer pal,
Satan
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Three months, three days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 27 seconds.
3787 cigarettes not smoked, saving $473.45.
Life saved: 1 week, 6 days, 3 hours, 35 minutes.
Oh, it does not either. It says that intercourse between men is a sin. The OT definitely does not condemn lesbianism (ask a Jew), and does not condemn homosexuality per se. A celibate homosexual is still homosexual.
And don’t tell me that Paul used the Greek word for “homosexual,” because there IS no Greek word for “homosexual.”