I must say, I read the Bible daily and I get great help and comfort from some of it.
I believe that if we follow Jesus, and do what He said was the greatest commandment"Love your God and your neighbor as yourself" then all will be well.
God doesn’t answer our prayers soemtimes, I have no answer to this.
My former pastors wife was the most godly person we knew, yet she died of cancer. Everyone prayed, but the prayers were not answered.
Don’t mean to veer off course here, but Not All of the Bible is for today(especially the kosher laws). If Jewish folk want to keep them, fine, its no sin and it doesnt hurt me.
Just my humble opinion, which doesnt apply to everyone.
What PLD said.
And further, “numerous places” amount to Leviticus and Romans (and 1Cor?). And I think Polycarp handled the issues of Levitical and Pauline law quite nicely.
The Christ said precisely nothing about being gay.
And since He’s the whole point to the religion, I think I’d be inclined to go with Him. Call me goofy.
Hi Goofy.
I am inclined to “go with Him,” too. Welcome to the incredible journey into infinite love.
Tris
Esprix wrote:
Admit it! You’ve worn 50% cotton/50% polyester – and you loved it!! :o
Aw, c’mon now Tracer . . . I fully believe that mixed-fabric-wearers can change. Why, one of my old college buddies was one, and through intense prayer and study, he was cured by the Lord. It was a slow process, but it’s proof that God can change any sinner. He now runs a group of Saved former mixed-fabric-wearers called Leviticus International, whose goal is reparative therapy for people who are trapped in the sinful poly-cotton lifestyle.
It works, regardless of what the Godless secular “psychologists” say. Here’s an excerpt from one of their testimonials:
It can work for you, Esprix, or even you, Tracer. You just need to see what Leviticus International’s reparative ministries are all about.
Can I get an Amen?
-andros-
(***** adapted from a testimonial at http://www.exodusmorthamerica.org )
Oops. That link should read: http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org
Sorry 'bout that.
My mistake, Esprix. I had always assumed you were all of those things in addition to being homosexual. :wally
FoG Let’s assume for a second that homosexuality is a sin. Let’s also assume that homosexuals can “be healed”. Let’s finally assume that homosexuality is a compulsion, like alcoholism. (Back … hurting … bending too far backwards).
Even starting from these assumptions, I don’t see how, according to your beliefs, that homosexuals (a) cannot be Christians, or (b) cannot enter Heaven.
You wrote
You also write
So – we are all sinners, but if you accept JC as your personal lord and savior, and develop a personal relationship with him, you can be saved. Part of that personal relationship is trying to turn away from sin.
But none of us succeed in turning away from sin. We all have a sinful nature.
So, are alcoholics doomed to Hell, even if they spend their lives fighting the urge to consume demon rum, yet fail? Are other people with various compulsive disorders also doomed?
No one “turns away” from sin completely. Christians try to avoid it, but they fail. So, why can’t a homosexual have a personal relationship with JC, even though he/she is a sinner just like everyone else?
Sua
A few responses …
Gaudere, in an attempt to keep this from becoming yet another 6 page “Christianity and Love Part 1” again, let me clarify one last time (hopefully).
Here is what I’m getting at. Yes, I fully understand that semantically, technically, I’m doing what I “want” by asking Jesus to control my life.
But there are times in my life that I want to do something sinful or ungodly. There are times in my life when I do NOT want to submit to Jesus’ will for my life. HOWEVER … I have given up the right to go by what I want for the rest of my life. As a Christian, I don’t have the right to just do whatever I feel like or whatever I want to do. I have to submit to Jesus, even if it hurts or if I don’t fully understand, or even if I don’t want to.
My point is this. A nonChristian does what HE or SHE thinks is best. A Christian submits their life to Christ and agrees to do what CHRIST thinks is best, even if they personally disagree or don’t want to.
Now as you said, Christians do have to regularly submit themselves to Christ. When a Christian sins, they are in a sense taking control back again, and acting just like a nonbeliever.
The truly powerful thing is this: the only way to really live out the Christian life is to let Christ change all of our individual wants to line up with His wants. It’s a slo-o-o-ow process and continues throughout this lifetime, but God DOES change our desires. He’s changed mine several times and I am s-o-o-o-o grateful.
So I hope that clarified what I meant. I was actually kidding about turning it into 6 pages again. If you still have comments I’ll respond. 
Trisk, I’ll respond to these two quotes:
“Friend o’ God is making the presumption that his understanding of the will of Christ is what applies to every soul. I will not make that assumption.”
and
"I think that shopping is a sin. I thing that eating food that you do not need for life and health is sin. I think that wearing expensive clothes in a world where someone wears rags is a sin. "
Your humerous list of sins makes the very point I’m trying to make. If each person can decide FOR THEMSELVES what sin is … do you know what? Everyone will define sin as the things that they don’t do. They will define goodness as all the wonderful things they do do.
This is why society has gotten so dangerous. No one believes in the standard of the Bible anymore, and surprise, surprise, society is losing it’s grip on reality. Right and wrong is a matter of personal preference now.
Let me say it point blank: an individual who defines sin in his own way, in general, will never define his own behavior as sinful! They will look at themselves and say, “Well yeah I’ve got a filthy mouth and I cheat on my taxes, but good grief, everyone does that! It’s not a big deal. But hey, look at THAT guy! HE is REALLY bad! He cheats on his girlfriend and lies all the time. Now THAT’s sinful!”
And he’s so busy looking at the sins of others that he’s blind to his own sin! I have a theory that this is why so-called voyeur TV is becoming so popular. Jerry Springer allows people to watch people in serious sin and say, “WELL! At least I’m not THAT bad! I don’t act that way, so I must be a good person!”
Okay that was long but I think you get my point.
Onward,
to … slythe, who said:
"The problem is that all of us are trying to interpret the Bible, while FriendofGod alone know what it REALLY means! "
This is the classic way to dance around what the Bible says … blame it on the person who gasp actually quotes it and believes it to be true. Anyone can know what it really means. The big impressive criteria is … you have to know how to read. And you have to read it for what it says, not for what you want it to say.
Now, again … ah, I won’t go into a big spiel … but briefly, YES there are obviously many passages of scripture that aren’t as crystal clear. There are passages where just reading it isn’t enough … you have to study and dig and research to figure out what it’s trying to say. But the Bible’s core message isn’t that hard to figure out. People try to complicate it because if they took it at face value, it would rock their world and they don’t want that!
Erika …
I don’t know you, but I cannot tell a lie … it was so very refreshing to read your words. Despite what some on this board might think, I’m not a masochist and don’t enjoy having my beliefs pummeled from all corners. It was nice to hear a supportive word. Thank you. And your description of the Christian life was beautiful.
Polycarp:
Thank you for seeing where my heart is, that was encouraging too.
As for the issues you brought up … well!! Finally some genuinely juicy debate topics are popping up! Not that I want to distract from the main point, but you listed some of the more controversial passages in the Bible. They are very interesting to study and I’ve studied some of them over the years.
I don’t at all claim to know the answers to any of the questions you raised, but I will give you one interesting tidbit. Regarding women leadership … there are contradictions that have to be resolved. There are passages in the NT that seem to suggest that women shouldn’t have leadership roles in the church, yet in the OT we see Deborah raised up as a judge, a leader over the entire nation of Israel, men and women. So there’s something more than what’s on the surface. There are NT women leaders as well. I’ve heard it pointed out that it says A woman cannot teach A man … as in a woman doing one-on-one counseling with a man, not necessarily a woman teaching a congregation. Interesting stuff, and I’m going to regret going in detail cuz someone’s gonna want to continue this discussion!! Aaaahh! Can’t help it, sorry!
Now Poly, I especially want to get back on topic here by quoting your last paragraph in full:
"Or maybe, just maybe, you can accept that God loves you. And all men. Homosexuals included. Not with various little provisos. Just as they are. Because it is by His Grace that we are saved, not by keeping a code of laws. "
Poly, do you realize that I totally, fully, 100% agree with this and I’ll bet anything Erika does too (although I’ll let her speak for herself)?
How on earth does this contradict what I said earlier? It is totally be God’s grace that we are saved from our life of sin. It isn’t about keeping rules. God DOES love all, homosexuals included (and I said that specifically in my original post on Part III).
There are two extremes Christians can go to Polycarp.
The legalistic extreme: “Follow these rules and you’re in”.
The license extreme: “Do whatever you want and God will love you anyway”.
Christ’s balance: “Come to me and let me change you into My image.”
Christ doesn’t give you a list of dos and donts and rules. He also doesn’t say you can do whatever you want to and still be His child. The perfect example was the woman who was being stoned for being a prostitute. After Jesus scared off everyone who was accusing her, He said to her “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more”.
He didn’t attack or condemn her for her sin. He showed perfect love.
But Polycarp … He DIDN’T then say “Continue in your lifestyle of sin … I’ll forgive you anyway” or “You were born to be a prostitute, continue in it”. He said “Go, and SIN NO MORE”.
Jesus has the perfect balance. He is totally loving and merciful. He never condemns you for your sin. But at the same time, He does not tolerate sin.
General comment for those trying to say homosexuality isn’t condemned in the Bible:
I will say this … I was very amused about a year ago when a lesbian I knew online directed me to a website that tried desperately to disprove all the scriptures in the Bible on homosexuality. There were one or two somewhat valid and interesting points, but for the most part I felt sorry for the guy. It was almost embarassing as he tried to dance around such a clear and obvious message. It’s not even worth trying to say the Bible is unclear on this. If you knock down one scripture successfully, there are many more.
Finally, SuaSponte,
Interesting post! I hope your back isn’t hurting too badly ;).
Here is your question:
"So – we are all sinners, but if you accept JC as your personal lord and savior, and develop a personal relationship with him, you can be saved. Part of that personal relationship is trying to turn away from sin.
But none of us succeed in turning away from sin. We all have a sinful nature.
So, are alcoholics doomed to Hell, even if they spend their lives fighting the urge to consume demon rum, yet fail? Are other people with various compulsive disorders also doomed?
No one “turns away” from sin completely. Christians try to avoid it, but they fail. So, why can’t a homosexual have a personal relationship with JC, even though he/she is a sinner just like everyone else? "
Exactly, up to a point. If you’ll scroll to the top of this post, re-read my FIRST point of the three that I made. It basically says what you’re talking about.
Here’s the distinction.
On the one hand, you have someone who has homosexual tendencies. They give their lives to Christ and want to obey Him, but these homosexual tendencies haunt him. He constantly struggles with them. He battles lustful homosexual thoughts and sometimes caves and gives in. He is tempted to engage in homosexual acts. All the while, he is crying out to God for the grace to change, knowing that he is God’s child, and that God can forgive him for his sins as he grows out of the sinful tendencies he is fighting. He is confident God accepts him despite his sins.
Now, on the other hand … you have someone who has homosexual tendencies, feels that’s it’s totally okay, and that it’s no one’s business to tell them what to do. They say that they can be a Christian and still live the homosexual lifestyle, so they do. They see nothing wrong with it at all and they have no desire to stop or change. It is, quite frankly, a slap in the face to Christianity when someone does this because it re-defines a Christian as someone who can do anything they want and “still be forgiven”.
That’s why it’s so-o-o-o-o important not to judge and assume from outside actions where a person’s heart is. If you see a guy lusting over another man, you don’t know what happens 3 hours later. Is he in bed with that man having a “great time”, or is he on his knees repenting to God and asking for the grace to change? It’s not about actions, it’s about heart.
Hope that helps.
Friend,
You assume that I do not believe that I sin. You assume that the “humorous” list of sins I mention is in some way trivial. Shopping is covetousness. Gluttony, and greed are sins. I am a sinner, in these, and other ways. Perhaps your trip through this world is vastly different, and you have overcome all sin.
If so, your pride is no sin, and your expression of how others might become as sinless as yourself might be other than naked hubris. You imply that your list of sins, gleaned from the Old Testament is less humorous, and more important than my list of sins. Never once in your discourse do you suppose that your own life might be unworthy of the love of the God of all Creation, and His sacrifice of self in becoming one of us. God loves you, Friend, but it is not because you have learned the secret of right living, or righteous being. He loves you because He is the Lord of Salvation. And he loves every soul he has made. If you cannot love them, it is not because they are unworthy of your love, it is because your love is less than perfect love of God.
But I think that perhaps you are more concerned with sin than with love, and more concerned with judgment than with mercy. In this, you are somewhat at odds with Our Lord, who chose not to condemn sinners, but to redeem them. I think you cling tightly to judgment. I don’t earn salvation, and being saved does not make me sinless. Being saved makes me immortal, and will allow me to follow our Lord into eternity, in love, and great glory. But I am no greater than any person on the earth, nor is any Christian. My place is not to prescribe to others how to live, only to offer to them my testimony to the love of God. Judge not, lest you be judged. Not in particular, not in general, and not in groups. You are not the judge.
The Bible is not the Word. Jesus is the Word.
Tris
FoG, you have merely confirmed what I said: your claim is that we are interpreting what the Bible says, while you are following some “clear-cut” message.
Bullshit.
As has been pointed out to(and totally ignored by) you, you have chosen to pick those “sins” and practices out of the Bible that you feel comfortable in following, just as other Christians have done throughout the centuries. Unless you’ve got videotape of you chatting with a burning bush, or a giant hand coming down and writing down Cliff’s Notes for the Old and New Testament on the side of your garage, we’ve got no more reason to follow your interpretation of the Bible than anybody else’s.
You have presented nothing we haven’t heard before, albeit in a rather condescending manner remeniscent of someone who is used to hearing “Amen!” when he lectures the unworthy, not “What on Earth are you talking about??”
Tris
Thank you.
God lives in warm hearts. Sin is coldness of the heart. If you shop with a cold heart, you are sinning. If you shop with a warm heart, then you are not sinning. If a man with a cold heart kisses another man with a warm heart, then the former is sinning and the latter is not.
Friend of God
Do not use the reasoning the Pharisees used when they condemned Jesus for cavorting with sinners. Open your heart to let God fill it with warmth. Remember that upon his son’s return, the King did not run out to greet him with a battery of tests, but with a robe.
Oh, Friend, we are talking past each other again!
No, I don’t disagree with what you are saying. And the person I was twenty years ago would never have posted the posts I have to this board. God does indeed change the person, from the inside, and bit by bit. But he builds on what is there, tempering and refining it to make a new creation out of the person that was.
I have never ascribed to “condoning sin” – I’m against sinning. But as Tris has ably pointed out, our definitions of what is sin may vary. A nd it is not that “yours is Scriptural” – implying that ours is not – it is based on our understanding of Scripture – and where we place our emphasis.
Suppose, for the nonce, we assume that a man picking up a girl in a bar in order to get laid is definitely sinning. Okay, but if he meets a girl, finds her wonderful, the perfect complement to himself, proposes marriage and is accepted, marries her, and then takes her on a honeymoon, the same actual deeds he would have done in the bar/motel scene are not sinful but his proper role as her new husband. (And, of course, the same holds true for the girl – what was she doing in the bar in the first place?) So far, no disagreement, right?
Now, the New Testament statements about homosexuality are phrased in a context that presupposes promiscuity, jaded appetites turning to gay sex as “something new to get one’s kicks from,” and the exchange of sexual favors for preferment by pretty boys to wealthy/powerful men. Read them in context, not just as proof-text verses, and that is pretty clear. They do not address the state of two men or two women desiring each other as lifelong committed companions – in bed, in daily life, in sickness and health, till death do them part. (And I intentionally used the marriage-service langugage – that is how they *feel[/] about their relationship, from everything I’ve garnered in a sympathetic reading of their situation.) They do not address this for the same reason as St. Paul never gives instructions about the ethical use of fax machines – the idea was not something current in first-century culture.
I would be most interested in getting some answers, either through you or directly, from your ex-roommate HIV+ ex-gay friend. Included would be:
[li]As he was growing up, did he feel desire for men/boys only, or for both men/boys and women/girls?[/li][li]What was he looking for in the time just before he met the Lord? Was it a good time, or a serious relationship?[/li][li]Did he feel guilty about his homosexuality before meeting the Lord?[/li][li]Does he feel that God spoke to him about his homosexuality, or did he come to understand it as wrong through the guidance of his fellow Christians?[/li][li]Does he still feel twinges of desire toward men/boys today, in the way that a happily married straight man might feel twinges of desire towards an attractive woman not his wife? If so, does he feel guilty about these?[/li][li]What was his attitude in “knowing his wife” and knowing himself to be HIV+? Was he concerned that she might become infected? Was he given to understand in some way that she would not be?[/li][li]Does he feel that (specifically) what happened in his life would work for other gays?[/li][li]How does he feel towards those who “condone” gay sex as not necessarily sinful? How does he feel about those who advocate gay marriage?[/li]
I would ask you to put those questions to him, Friend, and not volunteer what you think his answers would be. And I would ask him to answer as honestly and frankly as he feels comfortable doing, knowing that neither you nor we will judge him for them. He is one case of an “ex-gay” known to a poster, and several of us have noted that there are some pretty fraudulent claims about the ex-gay programs going on (from both sides of the fence – “It never works” and “Jesus will always ‘cure’ homosexuality” being the two obvious extremes).
And if it has not been clear to you, Lib., Tris., and I are talking about sin – the state of being apart from Christ, living a life controlled by your own understanding of the world and your own personal ethical code, as opposed to a life lived in Christ and attempting to follow His clear commands – and one still operates based on one’s understanding of the world and one’s own personal ethical code – but hopefully they are transformed by the Holy Spirit into what God wants of you in that time and place, as they will be if you are open enough. You, on the other hand, speak briefly of sin, but when the subject gets definite, you speak of sins – particular acts condemned by a Scriptural legal code.
And St. Paul, of all the people to drag in on the “liberty in Christ” side of the argument, makes very, very clear that we are free of the law. “All things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient.” he notes. And he chastises the Galatians for adding legalistic requirements to the commitment to Christ that is the Gospel he preached to them. What things are “not expedient”? IMHO, those things that fail to express, in a given circumstance, the love of God and fellow man. And nothing else is forbidden.
Tris gives some solid examples of how living out this commitment can mean that some things are sinful (to him, in his condition) that Moses and Paul never thought of condemning.
Read Tris’s paragraph beginning “But I think…” again, with open heart, not defensively, and see if the Holy Spirit does not convict you of judgmentalism against your brother as you do. And pray forgive me, for in speaking firmly in defense of the Gospel, I have said some things more harshly than I might to you. I tend to get very judgmental about judgmental people; it’s one of my own besetting sins! 
So basically the Bible is literal when you want it to be, and metaphorical when you want it to be. When it supports your belief, well, all you have to do is read the darn thing! If 2 passages conflict, why the one you like best is literal, and the one you like least is metaphorical of course. If a passage says that such and such is wrong or right at a given place and time, why then it is always wrong or right. And, of course none of this is in the least an act of interpretation on your part is it FoG?
Then why do you assume to know where every gay Christian’s heart is by saying that no gay person can be Christian?
Polycarp, isn’t there something in that book of yours that say something about hypocrites, and judging others, and presuming and stuff like that?
Esprix
Hey, where’d my post go? Gaudere? David?
**Esprix **
Quite a bit, including these:
“For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” — Matthew 7:2
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” — Luke 6:37
[…closing all my extra browser windows…]
looks in Good LORD.
In order:
Satan: Nice joke. I got it, at least.
Friend: Don’t be so quick to discount what PLD said. Where in the GOSPELS does Jesus condemn homosexuality? Not in the letters written later, many with hidden agendas of their own to suit the time period. In the GOSPELS.
If two men (or women) love each other, it is my belief God would rejoice in that love, and that caring. God does not tell us to change ourselves to become miserable. I know this. From personal experience. Sadly, it is intolerant people such as yourself that made me leave the church. My God does not act as yours. Mine does not hate someone for something they CAN NOT CHANGE. (And FTR? Comparing “knowing” you’re gay and it being a choice to “knowing” you’re an alcoholic was rude.)
Lib, Poly, and Tris: Thank you for proving to me that not all Christians are inflexible. hugs
Esprix: Yep, and the best one has been paraphrased already by Tris. “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:5
I’m new to this, and might have missed something, so if I did, pardon me.
Homosexuality is a sin, no matter how you look at it. But I think it’s only a WILLFUL sin in the cases where there is no actual genetic pre-disposition to it. If a person is making a lifestyle choice to be homosexual, then it’s clearly in violation of God’s Word.
People who are homosexual by genetic disposition are a much more complicated issue. I know the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, but how can it be a sin if a person has no control over it? I’m not an avid reader of the Bible, (I should be though) and I don’t know what God says about matters like that. Maybe someone could help me out there?
Lastly, on the matter of the interpretation of the Bible… The Bible is very much open to interpretation, no matter how you look at it. People have been doing it for centuries, and they’re not going to stop now. Two people reading the Bible can come away with completely different meanings in some places, but with the same basic message: God loves every single human being on this planet. He sent his Son to die on the cross for each and every one of us, and in that has forgiven all of our sins. All we have to do is accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, then live our lives in a good and decent fashion, as according to Scripture.
Welcome, Chocobo. Thanks for joining us!
I think you might have, in fact, missed something. Or I did. You said:
Er, how do you figure that? As you say, the Book is well open to interpretation. And the generally cited “anti-gay” passages from Leviticuls and Romans are very much open to debate, especially when contextuallized, as Polycarp mentioned above.
So I can certainly look at it in a way that precludes homosexuality from being a sin of any description.
Since, like you said, the passages in reference to homosexuality appear in different parts of Bible, you can simply cross reference them to form a general understanding of the point that was trying to be made, i.e. Homosexuality is a sin. “Man shall not lay down with another man” (I think that’s rather close to one of the verses)
I’m saying that there may be different, varying degrees of sin involved, such as lifestyle choice vs. genetics or a practicing homosexual vs. a non-practicing homosexual.