It is my understanding that most Christians (feel free to correct me) are opposed to homosexuality. I just have one question for them.
If your god is a loving and forgiving god, why would oppress people by not letting them feel secure in their feelings, i.e. not letting gay people be gay? It is my beleif that a loving god would let them feel what came naturally without trying to oppress who harass them.
And don’t give me the reproduction bs. Any smart god would see the problem of overpopulation, and would thus be ok with homosexuality because there are enough breeders already. And also none of that “god made adam and eve, not adam and steve”. It was eve who made adam eat the apple, right? So if it were adam and steve, that theoretically never would’ve happened.
I give you Leviticus chapter 18, verse 21: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
Also: Leviticus chapter 20, verse 13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
These are both from the old testament. Now as you can undoubtedly tell, God isn’t to high on the idea of male/male female/female relationships. It is a sin punishable by death. It is not ours to question God. God is God, Alpha and Omega, etc.
If you go strictly by the bible, Homosexuality= Sin. Sin= taking the express lane to hell.
However the beauty part of Christianity, is Jesus Christ himself, who died for our sins. Thus, being “saved” by Jesus clears the slate, and you start again.
Now that we have cleared up the confusion, over whether it is right or wrong, back to the OP:
Because, to put it in simple terms, (according to the bible)God did not make men/women gay, it is a personal choice. He does not “oppress” nor “harass” anyone. Do you know of any gay people, (or for that fact, adulterers, liars, murderers, etc.) who have personally been harassed by God? I for one commit adultery all the time, and I have yet to hear a word from God. This is because man was given free will to do what he chooses.
I would like to clarify the fact, that I personally do not have a problem with gay men or women. All I am attempting to do is give the facts of the bible, with little or no interpretation. As stated before, I am on the highway to hell for a lot of reasons. ssj_man2k, I get the feeling that all you are trying to do is troll, and start a controversy between Christians, and gays, much like your “pro-communism” statement over in the patriotism thread.
Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Morons!
~And I know I wasn’t right, but it felt so good… -Better Than Ezra
Umm ssj_man2k I don’t follow. It’s men that “oppress people by not letting them feel secure in their feelings, i.e. not letting gay people be gay”. If a gay person feels insecure upon discovering his own sexuality then it’s because the society in which he lives has told him that what he is, is unusual. God doesn’t enter into the equation of human prejudice anywhere.
Well, you could look at all sin this way. It’s natural to lie in some circumstances, I think. It may even be natural to murder someone. I mean, if you were angry enough. And don’t even mention coveting. That’s the most natural thing in the world, to want what someone else has. Yet they are sins.
I don’t believe God quantifies sin. In other words, I don’t believe that any one sin is worse than another in God’s eyes. Sin is sin, and “little white lies” are just as sinful as cheating on your tax return. And committing any sin, just once, separates us from God. So we are all equal in God’s eyes, because everyone sins.
It is people who work themselves up over which sins are the worst and run around yelling, “God hates fags” and such. Personally, I believe God loves everyone, gay or straight. He is not pleased with homosexuality, but neither is he pleased with people who are hypocritical and judgmental. We’re all in the same boat, it’s just that some people think their section of the boat is leak-proof.
I suggest that your problem is with intolerant Christians rather than with God. If so, you know what? I’m a Christian, and I agree with you. We’re not all mindless drones, you know.
That was what I was getting at in my first post, though I did not articulate it very well. Well Said!
But I have to disagree with you DAVEW0071 on “all sins are equal”.
There are greater punishments placed on some sins, for example:
Murder, homosexuality, beastiality, etc. are punishable by death. Whereas lies, adultery, coveting, etc. are not.
However, it is a moot point since you are going to hell anyway. It is just a question of getting there sooner, rather than later.* [/nitpick]
[sub] *Unless of course, you are “saved” by Jesus. [/sub]
Let me make this clear: I read the bible because I like history. I find it interesting. It does not mean that I believe it, live it, or try and influence anyone else on the subject. Nor do I condemn anyone who does.
It is my understanding that most Christians (feel free to correct me) are opposed to homosexuality. I just have one question for them.
If your god is a loving and forgiving god, why would oppress people by not letting them feel secure in their feelings, i.e. not letting gay people be gay? It is my beleif that a loving god would let them feel what came naturally without trying to oppress who harass them.**
I don’t think it’s (the J/C/I) God who’s doing the oppressing as much as some Christians who are doing a VERY NARROW INTERPRETATION of their Scriptures.
Why they do it a good question. My best guess is that they don’t find homosexual acts very appealing and pull random quotes from Scripture out of context to justify their feelings rather than examining them and finding out why they find them unappealing. Since 99.9% (okay that’s a WAG but…) of said homosexual acts take place in private between consenting adults, why do they get worked up over them in the first place? It isn’t as if they can’t walk down the street without running into copulating homosexuals!
[ul]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them worship other gods before they get around to worshipping Him, just to make sure they’ve got all the theological bases covered?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them take His name in vain to let off a little steam every so often?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them have their silly old idols–after all, what harm can it do?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them goof off on the Sabbath, instead of spending the day worshiping Him?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them dump their aging parents in nursing homes and then forget about them?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them kill other people who annoy them deeply?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting the married ones have sex with other people who really understand them?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them steal anything that catches their eye?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them lie like a rug on the witness stand, since the neighbor who’s on trial is a pain in the butt anyway and deserved to go to jail a long time ago?[/li]
[li]If God is a loving and forgiving god, why would He oppress people by not letting them make themselves sick wanting something that they can’t, or shouldn’t, have?**[/li][/ul]
Rules, SSJ. We got rules.
I always find it amusing when someone uses Leviticus for an argument, because it always seems like they havn’t actually read it, and instead simply repeat lines they’ve had mentioned to them as “speaking against homosexuality”. In any case, I doubt there are many people who use it without completely ignoring about 98% of it.
Heck, two thirds of the chapters of Leviticus deal with animal sacrifice, for everything from swearing to having newborns (Three animals, in that case). According to it, it’s just as much of a sin to eat pork, fowl, or hare as it is to have homosexual sex. Same with having sex with a woman that’s menstrating (Or touching her or anything she’s touched while menstrating in the past 7 days). Also condemns autopsies and tattos just as strongly. It also proscribes death (By various means, usually stoning, occasionally burning) for murder, adultry, incest, cursing one’s parents, wizardry, prostitution, and, of course, blasphemy (And here I thought the church was -against- capital punishment!).
Personally, when even devoted religious members will ignore 98% of a text from their own religion, I certainly find it reasonable that the other two percent should get ignored, as well.
Which of course is going to happen because there are so many internal contradictions in the Bible, and so much is simply incompatible with modern life.
The only reason homosexuality gets singled out from Leviticus is because it also exists as a cultural taboo, and the Bible, in a handful of passages, provides a flimsy excuse for people who are already disgusted by us.
If we had a strong cultural taboo against polyester-blends (a far more useful taboo, I might add :D), it would be that passage the religious right would quote.
I only use Leviticus because I feel the terms are more simple. I can quote the other books if you would like.
And to clarify once more: I do not pretend to be a bible thumper, nor do I agree with the bible on many, many counts. However, since the OP was about homosexuality, that is the ONLY reason it was singled out. Had the question been about incest, eating pork, etc. I would have quoted the book there too.
I would like to also make note that the OP has not returned to comment, cementing my thoughts that he was simply trying to start a fight between the Christians, and the gay culture on the board.
FWIW, I don’t think the original poster was a troll. Hell, I’ve almost posted stuff like this in my angrier moods, but generally stopped myself for the simple reason that there are open-minded devout Christians, on the board whose tolerance I’d like to return. In other words, I wouldn’t want to take aim at the religious-right wackos, and hit, say, Polycarp by aiming too widely.
But it does get frustrating for those who are gay, and find that whenever we’re denied some basic right, the reasoning is always religious. We go to Gay Pride parades and see old men holding signs that say "AIDS is God’s punishment. We turn on the radio and hear Dr. Laura. When I was a peer counsellor for gay teens ages ago, most of their low-self-esteem issues revolved around the idea that God hated them.
So I can understand the frustration. Those of us especially who don’t believe in the Judeao-Christian-Islamic God sometimes feel we have to attack the religion itself to get at the prejudice.
good post. Turns out that “fornication” is just as bad…but I rarely hear anyone getting bent about that. VERILY I SAY, choose which of god’s rules you wish to follow and allow yourself to break the one’s you don’t agree with. *because the christian god is just a made up myth anyhow!
–“And I would have got away with it if it wasn’t for you meddling kids!” --the Scooby Doo vilianous retort.
Actually, there is almost an entire chapter devoted to things just as “bad” as homosexuality. But that isn’t what the feakin’ post was about!!!
Geez.
He asked a question. A pretty damn straightforward question might I add, so I gave a straightforward answer. Am I wrong for this?
Additionally, I have stated I read the bible because it is interesting to me. Not because I believe a word in it.
If someone quoted a phrase from the anarchist cookbook, would you automatically think he was a terrorist?
Doesn’t make sense that an almighty god would have a problem with homosexuality. As a bonafide, %100, skirt chasing/catching heterosexual, I don’t care what two people of the same sex do on their own time (well, two women, heh heh) but anyway. Its been found (sorry no cites) that some homophobia stems from latent, shall we say, urges.
Seems as though when man(read macho man) invented the scriptures he instilled a definite bias.
Two men together does honestly make me sick when I really think about. So I really just don’t think about it.
Probably some of my heterosexual bedroom activities would freak out some people. Straight, gay, nerdly or whatever.
Live and let live.
First, not all Christians, by a long shot, buy into the homosexuality=sin scenario. And the greater share of us, insofar as they pay any attention to the question, accept the non-choice assertion as regards orientation. Many who would accept celibate gay people, though, get freaked by the idea of sexually active gays among them – and, of course, many do not, but welcome them and celebrate their humanity with them.
I’d point out that most mainstream Protestant denominations, with the notable exception of the SBC, have asserted the basic attitude expressed in the last paragraph: “You’re welcome, but don’t sin (=have sex against our rules) after joining.” Most of the United Church of Christ (mostly the former Congregationalists), many Episcopal churches, selected Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran Churches, and the UUs as a whole, welcome gay people with no strings attached to the welcome.
And one final thought for those who feel supercilious about “Christians who don’t follow 98% of their religion” – I don’t define my faith as in the Bible, but in Jesus and the God He taught. You’ll find most Christians feel the same way, though many give a lot more credence to Biblical accounts than I. There’s nothing that requires adherence to some line in II Chronicles as an article of faith, any more than accepting chemistry requires a robust faith in phlogiston, since the earliest chemists thought it explained things.
