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This is a continuation of the Christianity and Love thread, the last page of which can be found at: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=26726&pagenumber=6
It got too slow so it had to be locked up. Please continue from where you left off.
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator
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Wow, a thread I started actually has to advance to Part 2. Not that I had anything to do with that, but it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy just the same.
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FriendofGod managed to slip this one in to Part 1 after I closed it (he must have started it before I locked it up). Anyway, I wanted to post his message here so everybody could see it, since it’s quite possible that folks might not bother to check Part 1 after they saw it was locked. Following it is a message that Scylla somehow managed to get in as well.
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator
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FriendofGod speaking:
A few quick comments regarding what the other posters said:
First, Esprix.
The more detailed reason I didn’t want to continue this discussion:
If you want to convince me that #2 above isn’t true, I might be willing to discuss it. And as for “evading” the issue … I’m telling you outright I’m not commenting on it! I’d love to clarify some of the misconceptions you’re spreading about what I believe, believe me. It’s taking a LOT of “biting my tongue” to keep quiet. But I won’t get involved in a rude shouting match …
…which leads me to my next poster.
David B. I will respond to some of your comments, but I am going to ask again that you refrain from rudeness. If you choose not to, that’s your business, but I will not be responding to any more posts of yours that don’t use my actual user name, “FriendOfGod”. You don’t have to like it but that’s what it is. I don’t particularly like “Satan’s” username either, but that’s what I call him cuz that’s what he chose. I will not respond to any more posts of yours that blatantly curse God in the way you did.
I somehow don’t think this will cause you to lose sleep. If you aren’t interested in discussing these issues with me anymore, that’s fine. If you are, I ask that you call me FriendOfGod and that you don’t deliberately curse God just to “provoke” me. (Note: obviously I’m not saying I won’t listen to your honest feelings about God - if you truly think He’s a tyrant, I’d like to know more why you feel that way). If you can live with that, I’d love to continue our discussion.
“Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.” Titus 3:10. 'Nuff said.
On to your specific points.
I asked you how believers could not be miserable if God were a dictator. You basically said He only shows His TRUE colors after we’re dead. You said “His evil wouldn’t be detectable in life”.
So are you saying God’s a nice guy while we’re on earth, then BAM He turns into evil personified? You are so focused on eternal punishment, that you are totally discounting the tremendous, overwhelming eternal REWARDS for those who DO choose to follow Him. And it’s not like God doesn’t give everyone a chance. David, you’ve made it clear that you don’t believe in God. Would you rather God FORCE you to believe in Him and FORCE you to do things His way, or would you rather Him leave it up to you?
I asked how you can be sure of what you believe and you said: “I can’t. That’s just it – I don’t make absolute claims like you do. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe a new scientific theory will come along to explain things differently.”
So I think I’m finally getting an answer to the question, “What do you base your beliefs on”. It seems you base your beliefs on science, or at least partly. Am I correct? (Correct me if I’m wrong). But isn’t that a shaky foundation? Science, as you know has been proven wrong before. It could be proven wrong again.
You then said: “You admit that your belief is based on the Bible; we know you won’t accept anything that opposes that belief. That is why you are blinded by your belief. Since I don’t have such beliefs and since I use the objective standard of science and rationality, how, exactly, can I be blinded by a belief? I’d love to hear an explanation for this one, but I suspect it will be 180 degrees from reality, as your explanations usually are.”
Well, my belief in the Bible is based on my belief in God, which is based on the fact that I’ve had a life-changing walk with Him for nearly 30 years. It’s not just “blind faith” or “I’ll just believe because I just believe”. I say you are blinded by your belief, becuase you blindly accept science and what you consider rational to be the truth. The so-called “objective standard of science” can be incorrect. The so-called “objective standard of rationality”, in THIS day and age, can be incorrect. The two guys who shot up Columbine THOUGHT they were doing the rational thing, but they obviously weren’t.
Regarding poisonous snakes in the jungle, you responded: "If there’s no evidence they exist, then I wouldn’t worry about them. If there is evidence, such as scientists and others having found poisonous snakes in jungles, then I would worry. "
So you literally ONLY worry about something if there’s cold, hard evidence. That’s dangerous. Suppose a cold blooded ax murderer is hiding out in your basement, and there’s not a shred of evidence from law enforcement that he’s there. You might GET your evidence, but it might be too late - you might be the next victim!
Regarding image of God, you said: "My image of God? Nonexistent. I thought you’d have figured that out by now. "
Duh. I should’ve seen that one coming. Sorry, dumb question.
You later said: “If it interacted with reality, it would be testable.”
Again, YOU might be the test that proves it. And you might be the only person with that proof. Using the ax murderer illustration again … isn’t that extremely dangerous? Yeah it might be proven that the ax murderer lives in your basement … to you. What if no one ever catches him? No one will know he did it. Well, YOU will, but a lot of good that’ll do ya!
Later, you quoted me as saying that if YOU believe that people are being punished merely for failing to become mindless sheep, you’ve missed my point.
You responded: "I don’t “believe” it. It’s true. "
I thought you said earlier that “I don’t make absolute claims like you do”. You just did.
In response to my recitation of sins, you said "Some of the examples you used were thought crimes – things you might have thought but never acted upon. "
Exactly. One of the most misunderstood points of the Bible is that there is nothing seriously sinful about your thoughts. If you’ll read Matthew 5 - 7, the famous Sermon on the Mount, you’ll see that in reality, our thoughts are SERIOUS sins because they LEAD to action - sins.
A small sampling:
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder’, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” (Matt 5:21-22)
"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in her heart.’ (Matt 5:27-28)
Now do you see, ESPECIALLY after that last one, why I say that the weight of the guilt of our sin is overwhelming and can never be paid?!?
You said in the same paragraph: “And I notice you didn’t explain how any sane person can equate mass murder to thought crimes and failing to bow down.”
EASY to explain David. Thoughts lead to actions. There. There’s the explanation. Go into any prison and talk to the people there. You won’t find a single person who said, “Ya know, I just decided one day to blow my boyfriend’s head off” or some such statement. Everything started with a thought, that grew and grew until it turned into an action.
Truthfully, it is insane to NOT realize that evil thoughts are dangerous and serious things.
Regarding my rejection of your statement that God tortures people “Just for the hell of it”, you said "No, as before, I am merely holding up a mirror to your beliefs. You are the one who decided this, not me. "
And once again you’ve put words in my mouth David. I notice you conveniently ignored the scripture that I quoted that clearly contradicted what you said. I quoted it in response to your original statement, a few posts back. Here it is again:
“The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” (2 Pet 3:9)
So how does this jibe with, “God just throws people in hell for the hell of it?”
later you said: “I was waiting for this. You really are like so many of the other preacherboys we’ve had around here before. “You don’t like God? That must mean something happened to make you feel that way.” Well, I got news for ya: As usual, you’re wrong.”
Well, most people form their beliefs about God as they grow and experience things. They attribute certain events to God and it forms their opinion. I just figured you were no different than the rest of us.
Finally, you said:
“Yes, I did cross the line of civility. And I did it on purpose. Nothing else I was saying was getting through to you, so I thought maybe throwing in a few well-placed profanities might jar you a bit. Obviously, it didn’t work.”
How on earth was this supposed to work? You curse my Best Friend, and I’m supposed to start believing what you say? I don’t even get that.
Okay David, I truly would like to continue discussing this with you. As I said before, all I’m asking for is respect. If you don’t want to give it, that’s your choice and I’m sure you and I will find plenty of other people to debate.
avolongod:
You make a fair point (God I hate saying that.) I just can’t help but get frustrated at the special definitions and unstated axioms that serve no purpose but to obfuscate meaning.
That, and I’m still trying to figure out what “avoid
even the appearance of audiatur et altera pars,” means. I tried a translator and I came up with “avoid the appearance of listening to chicken parts.”
How this applies to Lib’s being " tu quoque," I can’t even begin to understand.
Then again, I’m a Key Westian.
DavidB:
:Writing this down:
You say it’s a miracle, huh? I’ll file that with your earlier claim of psychic abilities and save it for future use.
One of these days another poor Schlepp is gonna lose a creationist battle, start a pit thread about you and need some ammo. Then I can offer proof of your hypocrisy…
…for a price.
On the other hand, my silence can also be bought.
I’ll have to think this over as I continue to subsumate the Slythe personality.
David,
Sorry, I didn’t realize you started a new thread. I posted a lengthy reply to your last post and it’s at the bottom of Christianity and Love Part 1, Page 6.
Two other quick comments about what some of the others said:
El Guapo: "Now FoG, you can’t take that away from these people either can you, because they have experienced it and know the change it’s made in their lives as well. I’m pretty sure I can guess your answer here, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. "
An experience ALONE isn’t proof of God, but it IS part of the picture. The experience is half of it, and the truth of God’s Word is the other half. I probably didn’t make that clear, so I’m glad to be able to clarify.
pepperlandgirl said: "FoG, I don’t agree with you. I believe you still have to pay off the debt, whether or not you accept JC. You have to pay off the debt by your works. I really REALLY doubt that you just have “Accept Jesus” and then live your life however you want it because JC is in it.
Every day you have to pay the debt back and prove to God you were worthy of JC’s sacrifice. That’a the 10,000 you steal owe to the bank. YOU may think it’s ok to just accept him. But nobody eats for free. I think people have to prove their worth. "
pepperlandgirl, that is actually the most common belief that people on the earth have. In fact, when I ask people why they think they might go to heaven, MOST people respond with some variation of “doing the best I can”, or “if my good outweighs my bad”, etc.
Without getting into a lenghty debate, I would like to give you one verse to ponder. Would you agree that what you said is the most common belief that people have, that people have to ‘prove their worth’?
Proverbs 14:12 says “There is a way that SEEMS RIGHT to a man, but in the end it leads to death”.
Okay, I think I’m caught up. whew!
Yet another miracle.
“Verily thou shalt know him for he shall post though the thread be locked.”
-From Inanities, Chapter IV, Verses 9-11
Thanks for posting my topic David.
Just wanted to mention my most recent response to Guadere and … ahhhhh, someone else, sorry I can’t rememeber!!! … are in an earlier post at the end of Part 1. It was posted earlier tonight, shortly before the one David reposted here.
Ptahlis:
Actually I am a soft and fuzzy-thinking artist. But I can use logic when it suits me. Thanks, Ptahlis. 
FoG:
So, your premise is that no matter what horrible things you do, killing babies, knocking over old ladies, once you believe in Jesus Christ, it doesn’t matter? Do you consider this just? What just judge would forgive someone their crimes and swear they were innocent, when all that person has done is believe in/love the judge? What of those who suffered by your hand? Where is the justice for them? You go to paradise; they had to suffer for your crimes and you will never make reparation. I tell you again: justice fairly punishes the guilty and requires the guilty to make amends (as best it can; perfect justice would do so perfectly) to those wronged. Here, the guilty somehow “lose” their guilt by believing what God tell them to believe, and the wronged never see those who hurt them rightfully punished. Is this just? Or is it glurft?*
Um, what? You did, at one point, something deserving of punishment. If you were never punished for that, God left the guilty unpunished. You cannot wiggle out of this by saying you’re a “new” you; the “old” you, the guilty one, was never punished. Therefore the guilty were left unpunished.
So, in order for God to make you sinless, He has to make Himself suffer, and then He won’t see that you have sins. What, is God easily fooled when He fools Himself?
How can innocence override guilt? Yet again, how can it be just to punish the innocent to allow the guilty to save themselves?
Yet, apparently, one who can still sin. But if you believe in Jesus, even this “new creation” will never be justly punished for its crimes. So both the “old you” and the “new you” can sin, and never face punishment for it, and those who suffer from your sins will never know justice. You could brutally kill a mother’s teenaged child, but if you call out to Jesus, you will never have to pay for your crimes. This is not just, and what of the pain the mother and child suffered? If they are not Christians, you will go to heaven, and the only “justice” they will see from your God is an eternity of suffering.
So no, I still do not agree that your God is both wholly just and wholly merciful. The guilty are not punished fairly (becoming a “new person” does not mean the “old you” is innocent, so the guilty “old you” was not punished. Even the “new you” will sin, and never be punished for this.) Those who were harmed by your hand will never see you fairly pay for your crimes.
*Inside joke for those who have read part 1
FoG said:
I just noticed there is no “smiley” for me screaming because the person I’m talking to just doesn’t get it. Jeez, man, what will it take to get you to understand? To repeat once again (no wonder this thread is so long), my “honest feelings” about God are that he doesn’t exist. Do you understand that? I have only been replying to your description of your belief in your god.
“Try to explain to a closed-minded person once. And then try a second time. After that, it’s like banging your head against a wall, and you will probably have more luck with the wall.” Dex 4:35. 'Nuff said.
Oh, fercryingoutloud!
No! I said exactly what I meant. I never said he was ever a “nice guy.” I have explained exactly what I mean over and over and over again. Does it take practice to be able to be so infuriating? Do you sit around and ignore others as a kind of game? Just curious.
If he existed, I’d rather he leave it up to me – without the gun of eternal torture at my head. Indeed, that is what any logical deity would do.
I don’t base my “beliefs” on science. I don’t “believe” things the way you do. I accept them or reject them based on the evidence. And, no, it’s not a shaky foundation at all. It’s the best foundation, because even though individual ideas may be proven wrong, the entire scientific method is self-correcting. Also, unlike your system of blind belief, it doesn’t ignore reality, which is a major plus.
As I expected, 180 degrees from reality. As usual. < sigh >
Oh, give me a break. You’re going to blame rational thought for Columbine?! And here I thought I’d heard all the ridiculous things to blame for that one. Congratulations, you topped them all!
No. Warm, soft evidence will do sometimes.
Yeah, and? So what should I do, be afraid every time I walk into my basement that there might be a madman down there? Seems like a pretty ridiculous way to live. But that is the way you live, I guess – afraid of the boogeyman (in the form of Satan) around every corner, just waiting to jump out and steal your soul.
No argument there. 
Actually, I won’t. I’ll be dead. But he will leave evidence, like my body with some ax holes in it. (No jokes about axholes, please.) You see, the ax murderer is part of the real, testable world. Your God is not. I don’t know how to explain it any better than I already have (several times over).
Oh, great. Your God is 1984. I should have seen it coming, what with all the doublespeak you’ve been using. But the problem is that while thoughts can lead to action, they often don’t. So why punish thought? If I think to myself about a person posting on the message board, “Jeez, what an idiot. I should flame the crap out of that guy,” but then I don’t, I have done nothing wrong. So why should I be punished?
You really “think” you’re going to convince me by quoting from a book of fairy tales? I talk about logic, you quote the Bible…
I already know why you say it – because that’s your belief system. My point has been to try to explain to you why it makes no sense. It’s pretty obvious, howver, that this will never happen. At least not while you still hold this belief system.
Oh, yeah, it’s an easy explanation. It’s also a patently ridiculous one. Thoughts can lead to actions. Often, they do not. If my thought about you right now led to an action, well, let’s just say it wouldn’t be pretty. But it isn’t leading to that action. Instead, I’m just writing the umpeenth message trying to break through your closed mind.
No, I haven’t. You may not like the reflection you see, but that’s your problem, not mine. It doesn’t mean I tampered with the mirror, because I haven’t. I may be using terms you’d prefer not to see attached to your god, but again, that’s your problem. If you don’t want to see him described as a petty dictatorial tyrant, then don’t explain your belief system in the way you have been.
I ignored it because it was worthy only of being ignored. You can’t quote scripture to prove that scripture is correct. You can’t use your belief system to prove that your belief system is right.
Please, do me a favor – don’t ever assume that I am anything like you.
Scylla said:
I said it was a miracle of modern science (or words to that effect). Don’t go taking things out of context and make me call you a creationist!
:wally
Without intending to take sides, I should point out that the current state of affairs on this thread, (which is beginning to look a lot more like a reenactment of WWI than a debate) is likely to continue so long as you keep answering each others posts.
I would humbly suggest that all parties have reponded and reresponded to each others points, however valid they might be, long past the point of utility. It seems that little will be gained from this, and little progress likely to be made. I don’t suppose there might be anyone who can resist the urge to get in the “last shot” as it were?
As a side note, opening a BBQ thread on a poster if you had to is part of the game. Providing a link to that thread here in GD kinda ruined the point of having a separate local for all of that stuff, did it not? At any rate, it was definately NOT cool.
FoG:
Wow, I almost could have wrote that word for word. So experience is part of it. But all these people have life changing experiences as well. But your’s is the only correct one because you have the other half. So, you are saying experience means nothing. You only have the ‘right’ experience if it is based on Christian theology and your intrepetation of the scriptures. Only problem is, that most of your arguements posted (as far as I’ve seen) CAN be refuted using the Bible, almost solely from the OT and common misintrepetations of the NT. But you have yet to answer any of those arguements in any other thread. I tend to think that your beliefs are what you have been told to believe the bible says. A cursory look at the roots of Christianity would give an open minded person pause. Yet, I truly believe you are not open minded. You’ve been programed to repeat the part line over and over ad nauseum (poor David B) without independent thought. I can relate, I was once like that. Thankfully, not any more.
So, how many times have you been to Brownsville?
Guadere and DavidB - I’m going to respond to a few of your specific points, then I think I’m going to go with avalongod’s suggestion. More at the end of this post.
Guadere … I sincerely feel like I’m wasting my time now, but I’m going to respond to one or two of your points, for what it’s worth. (I don’t mean you’re not worth the time, I mean that I don’t think anything I say will change your mind).
You said: “So, your premise is that no matter what horrible things you do, killing babies, knocking over old ladies, once you believe in Jesus Christ, it doesn’t matter? Do you consider this just?”
Didn’t say “it doesn’t matter”. And also, there are ALWAYS earthly consequences for sin no matter what. If I kill babies before I come to Christ, and then come to Christ, I’m spared eternal punishment even though I deserve it. But (hopefully) I’ll still be prosecuted by the courts for my crimes, hopefully be proven guilty, and maybe even get the electric chair.
This applies to so-called “little” sins also. Maybe before I come to Christ I lie a lot. After coming to Christ I’m spared eternal punishment even though I deserve it. But that doesn’t mean that my past lies won’t come back to haunt me. Sin ALWAYS brings consequence, even if you come to Christ. Coming to Christ spares you from the punishment for the ultimate sin … rejecting Christ.
You said: "Here, the guilty somehow “lose” their guilt by believing what God tell them to believe, and the wronged never see those who hurt them rightfully punished. "
God’s justice ALWAYS evens the scales somehow. Just because there isn’t eternal punishment doesn’t mean that actions don’t have consequences.
You said: "You cannot wiggle out of this by saying you’re a “new” you; the “old” you, the guilty one, was never punished. Therefore the guilty were left unpunished. "
I did leave out half of the equation in what I said a while ago. I focused on Jesus’ perfection taking the place of my imperfection, so God doesn’t see me as guilty. But it works in reverse as well. Jesus took on Himself my sin while He was on the cross.
In other words, to expand on my earlier statement, when God says “I don’t leave the guilty unpunished”, He looks at the world and sees all those who haven’t accepted Christ. They are guilty and they are punished. He then looks at Christ Himself. HE has our guilt placed on Him. God sees Jesus as guilty, just as He sees us as innocent.
You also said: "What, is God easily fooled when He fools Himself? "
Make no mistake about it, God isn’t fooled at all. He knows I still sin and need forgiveness. It’s not LITERALLY like He can’t see what I am or am not doing.
sigh This opens up a HUGE teaching point which is a good one but could fill an entire topic all it’s own. In VERY brief capsule form, we are a THREE PART BEING: spirit, soul, and body. When Christ saves us, He takes over our spirit - the place inside us that’s empty until He comes in. That’s the part God looks at and sees us as innocent.
Our soul and body, however, are another matter. Our soul is our personality, and our body is, well, our body! Our soul is where we still sin and have to be cleansed daily.
Here’s a verse in Hebrews that summarizes this point: “Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Heb 10:14
Now how can I be perfect forever AND being MADE holy? Easy. Jesus is in my spirit and has made me perfect forever. But He is making my soul and body holy day by day.
I’m sure you’ll find something to disagree with, but there it is anyway. Hopefully you won’t dismiss it out of hand.
You said: “You could brutally kill a mother’s teenaged child, but if you call out to Jesus, you will never have to pay for your crimes.”
Again, I refer to what I said earlier. There will always be consequences.
You seem to bring up the savage cases especially, as if God is unjust for giving people like that a fair chance. But God is totally fair. EVERYONE, regardless of what they’ve done, has the same fair shot as anyone else. You don’t have to be good looking, successful, rich, poor – anything. You simply have to humble yourself, recognize your own wretched sinfulness, and come to Christ.
You guys rail against God for sending people to hell, THEN you rail against Him some more for giving people an opportunity to NOT go to hell! Nothing seems to satisfy you.
Guadere, I think avalongod is right. We are getting nowhere. I will read your response and I suppose we could keep going round after round, but where will it get us? You seem determined to stick to your guns regardless.
Sorry avalon but I do want to give a ‘final word’. I’m sure Gaudere and David B will too, and I don’t see anything wrong with any of us summarizing.
Gaudere, I truly believe you’re sincere and honestly, that’s what kills me. You really believe you are right. You seem certain that God doesn’t exist, and if He DOES exist, He’s this illogical being you wouldn’t want to serve anyway. I think you’ve convinced yourself of this.
All I can do is let God speak for Himself. I hope you take it to heart.
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24
“I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.” John 6:35
David, I’ll post a response to you next.
David, as I said to Gaudere, I think it’s obvious to both of us that this is going nowhere. I will read your response to this post and I suppose we could go on and on, but what would be the point? You are obviously in an antagonistic mode and not even really trying to understand my point. Nevertheless, I will make one more attempt.
I said: “So are you saying God’s a nice guy while we’re on earth, then BAM He turns into evil personified?” You responded: “No! I said exactly what I meant. I never said he was ever a “nice guy.””
Fair point. You’re right, you said He was evil all along and only exposed it after death.
Later you said: “If he existed, I’d rather he leave it up to me – without the gun of eternal torture at my head. Indeed, that is what any logical deity would do.”
sigh You seem to revel in turning God’s goodness into a warped, twisted viewpoint. David, I’ll tell it to you straight. You are guilty as am I. We both deserve eternal torture and have no hope at all. God stepped in and offered a way out. He didn’t have to. He could’ve just said, “Oh well that’s the way it is, Dave.” No, He chose to give you an option. David let me put it to you point blank – you are blaming God for the fix you got yourself into. The gun of eternal torture is aimed at your head because you have chosen a life of sin, just as I did before I submitted to Christ. The choice He’s giving you is a way to escape the punishment you deserve. Take it or leave it.
Later you said: “I don’t “believe” things the way you do. I accept them or reject them based on the evidence. And, no, it’s not a shaky foundation at all. It’s the best foundation, because even though individual ideas may be proven wrong, the entire scientific method is self-correcting. Also, unlike your system of blind belief, it doesn’t ignore reality, which is a major plus”
Again you’re making absolute statements. “It’s the best foundation”. And I’m sorry, but “accepting them or rejecting them based on the evidence” IS believing in something. You believe the evidence is accurate. As for science “not ignoring reality”, it certainly has ignored it at times. There are many times science has been proven wrong.
Later you said: "Oh, give me a break. You’re going to blame rational thought for Columbine?! "
I didn’t say that. I said THEY thought they were being rational, and I said they obviously weren’t. My point is, in this day and age, there’s a mindset that ‘whatever you believe is true is true’, regardless. These people believed it was rational to blow away their students. It wasn’t … but try to have convinced THEM of that.
You said: "But that is the way you live, I guess – afraid of the boogeyman (in the form of Satan) around every corner, just waiting to jump out and steal your soul. "
LOL! NOT. Satan is a wimp. Oh make no mistake about it he is VERY powerful and has some very good-sounding deceptions out there. But when it comes down to it, he literally cowers at the power of God. All he is is a very cheap imitation. He’s a pretender. He’d like to be God but he never will be.
You said: 'You see, the ax murderer is part of the real, testable world. Your God is not."
sigh again David, you know what? God is MORE real than you and I. The supernatural world of angels, demons, God, and the devil, is MORE solid and real than you and I. The REAL world is spiritual … WE live in the earth that is decaying and will one day be gone. I know you won’t like this paragraph, but I just couldn’t resist throwing it in to make your day.
You said: "But the problem is that while thoughts can lead to action, they often don’t. So why punish thought? "
I’ll admit I erred in one respect … you are right that thoughts that lead to actions aren’t the ONLY sinful thoughts in the world. Still, my point stands. A stream of evil thoughts LEFT UNCHECKED virtually always leads to action. A husband who constantly builds up a checklist of things he is mad about toward his wife, will one day explode on her if not left unchecked (that’s one of hundreds of examples). A man who lusts after a coworker for weeks and weeks will one day attempt a sexual liason if not left unchecked.
But lets say it’s just one isolated thought? Or just a cuss word said in the privacy of your car? Based on your theory, “no one is hurt” so it must be okay. Where do you get this standard from? EVERY time I sin, I invite chaos into my own heart. The truth is, SOMEONE is hurt EVERY time I sin … even if I’M the only one getting hurt.
Later you said: "You really “think” you’re going to convince me by quoting from a book of fairy tales? "
I honestly thought there weren’t any people left in the world who still GEUNINELY believed that the Bible was ‘just a bunch of fairy tales’. I mean, MANY nonbelievers at least acknowledge it’s an accurate history of the Jewish race and of the history of the early church. It is so obvious from this statement that you’ve just CHOSEN to not accept anything from the Bible, just because that’s where it’s coming from. How open minded.
Later you said: "Oh, yeah, it’s an easy explanation. It’s also a patently ridiculous one. Thoughts can lead to actions. Often, they do not. " Point conceded, as I said earlier.
Now, let’s get to your final comments. I mentioned that you had put words in my mouth and you responded “No, I haven’t. You may not like the reflection you see, but that’s your problem, not mine. It doesn’t mean I tampered with the mirror, because I haven’t. I may be using terms you’d prefer not to see attached to your god, but again, that’s your problem.”
Okay David, tell ya what. Let’s make it real simple. It will be very easy for you and anyone to follow. Are you ready?
That is what I believe, plain and simple. Your attempts to twist it into making God out to be a bad guy either exposes the fact that you are closed to the Bible or it exposes the fact that you can’t read.
David, I see one of two possibilities here. One is that you deliberately twist my words and the words of the Bible to turn God into a bad guy because it gives you a good excuse. If the God of the Bible is a dictator, then you can feel justified in not submitting to Him.
The second possibility is that you actually do believe in God. You even believe in “the God of the Bible”. But you have such a warped view of the God of the Bible, that you have pushed the idea of God out of your mind so far that you now claim to not believe in Him.
Either way, I hope that you will consider the possibility that you might have misunderstood the God of the Bible. I doubt that you read the Job passage I suggested earlier, so I will close with a few choice verses for your to ponder:
(from Job 38:1-5)
"The the Lord answered Job out of the storm. He said, “Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off it’s dimensions? Surely you know! Who strectched a measuring line across it?”
…
(from Job 40:6-8)
"Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm: “Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?”
…
(from Job 42:1-3)
"Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge’? Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.”
…
(from Job 42:12)
“The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the first.”
**
If the object was to change minds, I doubt anyone here would respond to you at all.
**
This fascinates me on a couple of levels.
First of all, irt can be argued scripturally that the death penalty is not what God wants. I wonder how you deal with such questions - especiually since this has to do with debate WITHIN Christians, not among some heathen outsiders.
Secondly, if you are right, worldly punishments are NOTHING. After all, Christ Himself weent through quite an exhaustive little marathon on the cross and even got a quick trip to Hell (says some) for his wondering why he was forsaken.
Which is a great metaphor about how the suffering we do here is all worth it for a great reward we will get. Very poetic, if a bit overblown (not unlike King or Rice, really).
So a worldly punishment shouldn’t bother anyone., After all, remember that line about how God’s law is more important than man’s law?
As such, the wacko who kills an abortion doctor, knowing full well what he is doing is agaiinst man’s law, also believes that it is well within his rights as a good Christian to enfoorce His laws.
So the guy who kills the abortion doctor goes to heaven, right?
Sorry. I’d rather be there with Ghandi, the Pope, Muhammad, Buddha and WallyM7. And maybe the victim of his self-righteous crime as well.
[quote]
This applies to so-called “little” sins also. Maybe before I come to Christ I lie a lot. After coming to Christ I’m spared eternal punishment even though I deserve it. But that doesn’t mean that my past lies won’t come back to haunt me. Sin ALWAYS brings consequence, even if you come to Christ. Coming to Christ spares you from the punishment for the ultimate sin … rejecting Christ.[/quuote]
What this means is that you will still have to atone for your sins even as a Christian. And you also say that we all sin. Therefore, life is nothing but sins that I will do regardless “coming back to haunt me,” eh?
Thanks, but I see the good in people. The dogmatic view of your religion that you have essentially says, you suck, and every sucky thing you do will be something that will come back to haunt you, and you will never stop doing sucky things.
Maybe you might wish to look at how the Chosen People view this attitude sometime. Ever do that, FoG? ever think about what the Jews - God’s Chosen People - think about this idea?
**
But God DOES see you as guilty! He sees EVERYONE as guilty! It’s just if you kiss ass, he lets it slide when it really counts - the afterlife.
**
As I said elsewhere (and as was ignored) there are many people who never had this chance. Countless people never had this chance. You can rationalize it as the “pygmies in Africa” argument (sounds like you think that people who fit this description are somehow less entitled to salvation that, what, tall white people in civilized countries, maybe?).
I can show you EVIDENCE of people who never had a chance under the system you describe.
And also, while you consider it fair that God would bring a killer to heaven while his victim goes to hell, I am willing to wager that if you were in heaven and found yourself standing next to the person who killed your wife while she burned (you thought she was saved, but maybe she asked why God forsake her in that terrible moment - and unlike Jesus, didn’t just get a quick tour of the underworld - and you cannot juudge what is in anyone’s hearts anyway).
Feel free to think this is totally fairr alkl you want. I choose otherwise, and I’ll wager if you were being told independently some erroneous information about how some other religiion felt this way, you would use that as evidence towards condemning it.
**
You say that God is just when He lets murderers into heaven and you say that God is just when He doesn’t let the voctims of that murderer into heaven. Everything wrong seems to satisfy you!
Yer putz,
Satan :wally
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, two weeks, four days, 5 hours, 44 minutes and 22 seconds.
3169 cigarettes not smoked, saving $396.19.
Life saved: 1 week, 4 days, 5 minutes.
First of all, no gets himself into the fix. You say that all people are sinners; everyone deserves to go to hell. Even if you live a good life, you have Original Sin hanging over your head. Therefore, the mere act of being born gets a person into the fix. Most people don’t have much control over their own births, and we certainly can’t control what supposedly happened in the Garden 6,000 years ago.
Why does god allow people to be born, knowing ahead of time that most of them are going to be damned for eternity?
Secondly, in the scope of eternity, a full lifetime on earth is less than a blink of an eye. Yet the decision to believe or not (if belief is a decision at all) determines how you will spend the rest of eternity. Bliss or torture? Fifty zillion cajillion years from now, will you even remember that flicker of time spent on earth and why you made the decision you did?
By the way, Satan, I love Kissing Hank’s Ass.
FoG said:
It is? Does this mean our soul can be altered by psychiatric drugs, blows to the head, etc.?
I posted something in one of these threads as a follow-up to something Holly said. What happens to the person who was a good Born-Again Christian but got hit in the head and had a change of personality because of it? Does he still go to Heaven, or does he end up in Hell?
I’m keeping this separate from my larger response because 1) My son is waking up and I don’t know if I’ll have time to respond to the larger one, and
2) I think it’s a separate issue that warrants further discussion even if you don’t respond to the next message.
OK, let’s see how much of this I have time to address.
FoG said:
Yeah, that’s it. I am not trying to understand you. Like I’ve said before, 180 degrees from reality. :rolleyes:
How kind of you.
No. I merely point out that what you claim to be goodness is, in fact, not.
Why? Only because of your belief that this is true. And who is the basis of this belief? Your god. So according to your belief, we all deserve eternal torture because your god said so. I say we are not, and have repeatedly explained why. But for you it all comes back to the belief that we are simply because your god said so. No amount of logic or rational explanation will change your mind apparently.
Baloney. I am blaming the god you believe in for the mess he created, and then blamed everybody else for. I am blaming you for believing such nonsense and refusing to listen to reason.
Did you even bother to read before responding? I specifically said (and you requoted), “even though individual ideas may be proven wrong, the entire scientific method is self-correcting.” And you wonder why I’m getting frustrated talking to you?
Yes, that’s essentially what you did say.
Right. So you blamed the idea of independent rational thought. Otherwise, why even bring it up?
Some people do have that mindset. I don’t. I have never promoted it. So why bother to bring it up?
It would probably be less difficult than explaining to you why your mindset is irrational…
Gosh, thanks. But all it does is show that you still haven’t the foggiest idea what I’ve been talking about…
Only one?!
Which still doesn’t matter. If it leads to action, the action should be punished. If it doesn’t lead to action, there is nothing to punish.
I get this standard from reality and rational thought. Who have I hurt if I just have a thought and decided not to act on it? And don’t say “Jesus” or something like that. I’m talking about real people, not the one supposedly making the decision.
I doubt that anybody here didn’t already know that you believe these things. But no matter how you restate them to make them look good, the simple fact still remains that God punishes people who don’t bow down to him in exactly the right way, just like any petty tyrant. And worse, he made the rules such that people who didn’t bow down get sent to eternal torture, and yet he still claims to love them.
Frankly, if this guy were in charge of a country, the UN would already have sanctions against him and there’d probably be a trial for crimes against humanity.
Nope. Because I haven’t twisted your words. You just don’t want to believe that there is a flip side to your “good” image of God.
And nope again. I have already told you numerous times that I don’t believe in any god, so why would you suggest that I do, other than to call me a liar? I have repeatedly explained that I am merely holding up a mirror to the god you profess belief in, trying to show you how ridiculous those beliefs are. But I notice you didn’t even include that – the real answer – in your list of possibilities. After all this time, I’ve still made absolutely no headway against your blindness. 
Funny, I bet that’s what a lot of Christians reading this are thinking about you right now.
Since I’ve already told you what I think of quotes from that book, why on Earth would you throw more of 'em here? Is it because it’s easier to do that than to think for yourself? That sure seems to be the answer…
Holly
At last, meaty observations. Thank you
Why does Straight Dope fight ignorance, knowing ahead of time that most people will remain ignorant forever? I would say that it is because the salvation of even one is worth the effort.
If God has placed us in the amoral context of nature to act out our moral play (and I believe He has), then He will not judge us, but will leave us to judge ourselves.
“If I were to judge you, my judgement would be true in every respect… But I do not judge you. You judge yourselves by the words I speak.” — Jesus
That is, you will decide for yourself, upon seeing Him, whether you wish to go to Him or go away. If you heart is full of love, like Gaudere’s, then you will rush to Him with all the urgency you can muster, because your heart will recognize Him as the very source of its joy.
The sides we are taking here (most of us against Friend of God) are intellectually derived. Many atheists are very moral people; likewise, many theists are quite immoral. The decisions God leaves to us are moral ones. And just to clarify (since I live in my own head), I don’t mean decisions like whether we prefer penises or vaginas (which is not a moral decisions at all); I mean moral decisions like whether we will love our neighbor.
A fine observation!
Just as three-dimensional beings can see both the inside and outside of a circle at once (unlike two-dimensional beings who can see only one or the other), so God can “see” the inside and outside of everything at once, including the beginning and ending of time. Even a four-dimensional being would see you inside and out from his perspective of ana or kata. God, a Spritual Being, sees even the recesses of our hearts.
Whether we play out our play for tens of years or tens of millions of years makes no difference.
FriendofGod, why do you persist in misusing the English language? “Logic”, “love”, and “real” do not take on another meaning just because you are a Christian. By this time you must know how they are commonly defined, and for you to constantly misuse them shows that you have no respect for those you talk with(or down to.)
Also, using the Bible to prove the validity of the Bible is something we like to call Circular Reasoning. Of course, if you had any idea what “logic” meant in the first place, you would know this.
You want respect shown to your imaginary godling? Why don’t you do a little research on how your religion and its followers have treated those who didn’t believe the right way for the last couple of thousand years or so, and get back to me on that, o.k.?