If you and he were on a dessert island, I fail to see what tenets of his faith and yours would come into play at all.
Please give me an example. It better be better than stealing your weapon and trying to use it against you, because this seems to go against the tenants of “Harm no one,” which is a major tenet of most so-called Pagan belief structures.
Of course, a Pagan could do something against their religious beliefs, but so could a Christian. And none of that has anything to do with what they believe, but the fact that they are disobeying what they should (by their own faiths) obey.
So, do you not know anything about Pagan religions, MGibson, and are attributing negative things to that religion based on your own ignorance? Or are you just trying to be contrary after being shown your original thought on the matter to be greatly flawed?
Yer pal,
Satan
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** You must have missed what I wrote. The example I used was a desert island.
**
???
I have re-read what you wrote, and I think I know what point you were trying to make.
Matt was talking about going to hell if the Christians were right. At that point isn’t it too late to be bound by any kind of biblical laws? He was also talking about going to the summerlands if he was right, and he has already accepted the laws there as his own.
Now, if he went to Christian heaven, I guiess I could see the point you were trying to make with the desert island example. Yes, he would be held to biblical laws there.
So when you say, “they’ll think you’re bound to their laws”, who are the “they” that you are talking about? As for the desert island, is it supposed to represent heaven? The summerlands? Hell?
If you and he were on a dessert island, I fail to see what tenets of his faith and yours would come into play at all.
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I didn't mention faith. I simply mentioned that I'd attempt to make him live according to my laws. At least in respect to how it affects me.
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ease give me an example. It better be better than stealing your weapon and trying to use it against you, because this seems to go against the tenants of “Harm no one,” which is a major tenet of most so-called Pagan belief structures.
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Yeah, and Pagans certainly never harm anyone in any way shape or form. I didn't use his faith as an example I simply said if he, or anyone else, were to do something to me that I considered against my law (ie. my personal set of ethics) I'd enforce my will upon them.
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So, do you not know anything about Pagan religions, MGibson, and are attributing negative things to that religion based on your own ignorance? Or are you just trying to be contrary after being shown your original thought on the matter to be greatly flawed?
[quote]
I'm not an expert on Pagan religions. Since my original thought on the matter was not based on his personal faith, or set of ethical beliefs, I've said nothing about Paganism in specific or general. So my original thought on the matter is is not flawed. The point is that people will enforce whatever law they deem appropriate despite the individual.
Marc
PS: When I was younger and looking into philosophies and religions I took a serious look at various Pagan religions. I found that it wasn’t to my liking since it was a bit to wishy washy for my taste. But then I don’t dislike Pagans or Paganism any more then I dislike other religions.
That makes two of you confused by what I said. Either I'm just not being very clear or you two are really messed up. Ok, I'll fess up that I just wasn't very clear on the subject. My bad. Hopefully y'all will find it in your hearts to forgive me. Also forgive me for my last message that the editor had a field day with.
I thought Matt was talking about being held to Biblical laws in the here and now. After all he used France as an example of laws that he is not bound to as a Canadian. So in the here and now he is bound to whatever laws are in place wherever he is. Whether he agrees with those laws or whether they are moral or immoral doesn't make him less bound to them. Or at least the effects of breaking those laws. Ethically I think plenty of laws can be broken.
** Yeah, and Pagans certainly never harm anyone in any way shape or form.**
It’s interesting how you cut out the part where Satan said that pagans and Christians are both equally capable of harm.
** I’m not an expert on Pagan religions. Since my original thought on the matter was not based on his personal faith, or set of ethical beliefs,**
Actually, you gave the opposite impression by prefacing your example with the sarcastic “And yet another fine example of how loving and tolerant our pagan friends are”. If you don’t plan to use religion in your example, then leave out the sarcastic religious remarks in your post, as well.
THe point was the "harm none" philosophy was irrelevant since so many people violate the dictates of their religious philosophies anyway.
Of course my sarcastic comments about the "loving and tolerant" pagans was made in light of what I'd consider a pretty bigoted comments. Who'd want to be in heaven with them? (Them being blacks, jews, christians, whoever.)
OK, I’m sorry, I really didn’t mean it. In fact, I’d love to spend eternity next door to Jerry Falwell.
**
Yeah, when I hear the term “Fundamentalist” I think of Falwell and Robertson. Spending eternity with them is my personal hell. But the average run of the mill Christian (eg. my parents) I would have no problem spending eternity with.
I do believe the “laws” you speak of are also against what any secular humanist would find ethical and moral. Christianity doesn’t have a moratorium on “Thou shall’t not steal,” you know.
I believe that what I said allowed exactly for this fact, and also it is convenient that you leave out that Christians are capable of rthis as well - or do you not think so?
I could argue that you, by attempting to exact a punishment and make a judgment on the person who “stole your weapon” are guilty of not turning the other cheek, not being forgiving, and judging, lest you not be judged.
I am still waiting to see an example of something that would violate your “personal set of ethics” that a rational and logical human being would not think violates theirs as well.
So, either show me an example where a person on this island does something which is contrary to your Biblical Laws, but not contrary to the laws of man, or admit defeat on this point. Don’t make me “enforce my will upon you.” I don’t even know what that means, but I don’t know if it’s the correct answer when asking WWJD.
It does seem clear, yes.
Please note that the very first words on your very first post in this thread are: "And yet another fine example of how loving and tolerant our pagan friends are."
Can you give an example of how this person on the island you are on, by strictly disobeying Biblical Law (as opposed to what your example was), affects you in any way?
I have yet to see one, and as such, it is flawed. I sumbit that Biblical Law does not apply to the non-believer. Please show me how your Pagan fellow castaway “needs” to submit to those rules, and give a good example of how this would affect you at all. Until I see an example that makes sense, then yes, it is quite flawed.
Also, you are leaving out the obvious here - Why is it not possible that the Pagan (or athiest or whatever) won’t enforce their laws on you? What if there are a dozen people on the island, and you are the only Christian? Seems like you definitely lose this one.
But most importantly, what is there to lose or win? I await the example that shows me that ONE of the structures of beliefs has to prevail. Becuase right now, I see an island where everyone can get along just dandy.
And Christians never violate what the Bible says to do. Nope. No siree. Uh, uh. Never happens.
Watch out for those false judgements! You wouldn’t want to “violate the dictates of (your) religious philosophies,” now would you?
Yer pal,
Satan
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What ever gave you the impression that I was a Christian? Judging the actions of others doesn't violate my philosophy. And there's nothing to stop a bunch of Pagans, Communist, Fascist, or Christians from burning me at the stake if they decide I'm in violation of the law.
With respect to the oath requirement in courts, an oath is by nature a religious ritual. The purpose of the oath is that it is a ceremony/ritual that emphasises the seriousness of what is going on, and the absolute necessity to tell the truth. To do that, you want a ceremony that binds the witness’s conscience, and therefore you use the ritual that the witness’s faith has proscribed.
For some Christians, but not all, that means an oath on the Bible; for others, it means swearing the oath without the Bible; for still other Christians, like Quakers, who object to oaths, it means an affirmation.
Other religions have other rituals, which may have a religious link, but since you’re relying on the individual’s own choice of religion to bind that person’s conscience, I don’t see a church-state problem - the court is respecting that person’s religous/non-religious beliefs.
Now, you could just go to affirmations by all witnesses, but then what do you do with the religious person who says, “Truth to tell, that affirmation doesn’t bind my conscience - only calling on God as my witness does, so I want to swear an oath, please.”
Satan says: << If you and he were on a dessert island, I fail to see what tenets of his faith and yours would come into play at all. >>
Man, a dessert island is the kind I’d like to be on, especially if there’s creme brule. Unless… would a dessert island be like a huge scoop of ice cream, covered with chocolate sauce, whipped cream and a cherry on top? If so, would it likely melt in the hot tropical sun?
I think it depends on how you’re looking at it. Fundamentalist Christians hold that yes, indeed you are and because you aren’t of their particular brand of Christianity, you’ll burn in Hell. The analogy for this would be that there is a government in Ottawa and even if you live in a cabin alone in the wilderness, you’re still bound by the law by virtue of living in Canada, even if you’re not aware of it.
The Roman Catholic Church holds (roughly) that if you never had a real opportunity to become Catholic, but are the best Pagan you can be and follow those rules devoutly and with faith, then you can still go to Heaven. (this is a recent change in policy and I might not have gotten it 100% right)
Many mainstream Protestant sects hold similarly.
Now, most of the “Biblical” laws, are not uniquely “Judeo-Christian.” Murder, theft, and perjury are generally considered bad things regardless of religion. So these make sense as civil law. My question is why Fundamentalist Christians feel that strictly moral laws, such as prostitution, working on Sunday, drinking alcohol (in moderation) and homosexuality should be applied to non-Christians. They want to eliminate sin and uphold morals, but if the people they’re applying these “laws” to will burn in Hell anyway because they’re not Christians, what’s the point?