I’m curious.
As a Canadian, I am not bound by the laws of France. As I am neither a Christian nor a Jew, do Christians think I’m still bound by the laws of the Bible?
Do you mean the earthly laws derived from Biblical beliefs, or the laws that determine how warm the afterlife will be?
Nah.
Peace,
mangeorge
OP:
Well, according to the Helm-Burton bill, you are subject to the laws of the US. And apparently the US and Britain consider Libyans subject to their laws as well. I have the feeling that the French consider you to be bound by at least some of their laws.
Matt, from many of the posts I’ve seen around here, many Christians do consider you bound by their laws – not the least of which is that you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior and all that. Or else you’ll burn in Hell for all eternity.
I always figured, hey, if the Christians are wrong, I’m going to the summerlands and getting reincarnated. And hey, if they’re right, at least I’m gonna go where the interesting people are. (Who’d want to spend eternity with a bunch of fundamentalists?)
A Pagan died and, much to her surprise, found herself at the Pearly Gates facing St. Peter. He walked up to her and said, “Hello, and welcome.”
She stared at St. Peter in complete confusion. “Wait a minute,” she said. “I was supposed to end up in the Summerlands.”
He smiled. “Ah, you must be one of our Pagan sisters. Follow me, please.”
Peter gestured for her to follow him down a small path which went through the gates and down a bit to the left. They walked for a short while, then he stepped back and gestured her forward. Looking past his hand, she saw the verdant fields and forests of her desired Summerlands. She saw people feasting, dancing, and making merry, exactly as she expected.
While shaking her head in wonder, the Pagan happened to glance over to one side and saw a small group of people a short way away from the edge of the Summerlands. The people in the group were watching the revelers, but not joining them. Instead, they were screaming and weeping piteously. The Pagan looked at St. Peter. “Who are those people?” St. Peter replied,
“Them? They’re Fundamentalists. They’re a bit surprised to see you all there, so they stand there and carry on like that all day.”
“Why? Don’t they have better things to do?”
Peter leaned conspiratorially toward her. “They don’t really have a choice. They’re actually in Hell. God doesn’t like being told what He thinks.”
Of course they think you’re bound by their laws.
And I’ll let you in on a little secret: they’re running for School Board and County/City Commision seats in your hometown this November. If they can’t trick you into their thinking, they’ll try their hardest to force it on you.
Ronald, being Canadian, I’m quite sure that the current fundamentalist influences on US politics do not apply to my city’s school board elections. But thank you for the tip.
That’s priceless, Gaudere.
The thing is, Biblical law isn’t really law. True law (meaning a code controlling human conduct, as opposed to natural law) applies to everyone in society, is unambiguous, is handed down by a clearly identifiable authoritative body, and is readily enforced. Faith doesn’t enter into it.
Biblical “law” on the other hand is more like a theory (or rather a hypothesis). If you do or do not behave in a certain way, you might be rewarded or punished in the afterlife. Maybe. No one knows. Maybe there is no afterlife, maybe there is no God.
I’d say that if there is a God who enforces His own laws, then they apply to everyone. I don’t see why people should be held to different standards just because they have different beliefs.
Well, some religions do hold different people to different standards. If you are not ethnically a Jew (or unaware that you are) and have not converted to Judaism, you don’t have to follow the 613 Mitzvot. You are required to follow the Noachide laws, though. And even most fundamentalists do not have a God who sends people to Hell for not professing belief in Jesus if they’ve never even heard of Him.
I disagree, Squeels. Biblical Law (by which I mean Old Testament) was the framework for the society that the Israelites created. Yes, there were ethical laws about “Honour your father and your mother”, but there were also laws about how to collect tax, how to adjudicate guilt/innocence, how to resolve disputes, etc.
I can’t speak for Christianity, but Judaism teaches that there are seven Laws given to Noah (as Gaudere mentions) that are applicable to all mankind. These include not to murder, not to steal, not to commit adultery, not to drink blood. (Actually, there are rabbinic disputes about exactly what these Laws are, but that’s for a different day.)
The rest of the Jewish Bible includes laws that apply only to Jews, or only to Jews living in ancient Israel.
A society can adopt Biblical law (or Islamic law, etc.) as its civil law. It is the contemperary act of official adoption, not the legendary act of God handing it down, and the fact that the government, not God, is enforcing it that makes it a true set of laws.
Matt said:
Actually, that’s not if the Christians are wrong, but if they are wrong and you are right. It is possible that you are both wrong, after all.
They do, but they’re wrong.
Alas, here in the U.S., debates still happen - in Congress no less - that use religion as the foundation for an argument. And sometimes they pass.
Makes me want to move to Canada, eh? 
Esprix
Esprix: The border, the city, my door, and my bed, in that order, are always open to you.
Well, In Minnesota, you can’t go to a liquor store on Sunday. Okay, you can GO, but they’re closed. We had a thread some time ago about goverment facilities closing for Christian holidays. We swear oaths on Bibles. Bigamy is prohibited. Cannibalism is banned. You can’t sacrifice a chicken. The flag is called “sacred” by some (which justifies protecting it).
You bet that non-Christians get bound by Christian laws. I’m not talking about laws which can be derived from logic and social contract and other ehtical systems–far too many of our laws are based on what Christians decide (based on their religion) what is acceptable for EVERYBODY.
Bucky
And yet another fine example of how loving and tolerant our pagan friends are. The answer of course is that they'll think you're bound to their laws. If you and I are on a desert island and you decide sleeping under my thatched roof, eating my shellfish, and wearing my grass skirt without my permission so you could work on your art you bed I'd hold you accountable under my system of values.
Marc
**
And yet another fine example of how loving and tolerant our pagan friends are. The answer of course is that they’ll think you’re bound to their laws. If you and I are on a desert island and you decide sleeping under my thatched roof, eating my shellfish, and wearing my grass skirt without my permission so you could work on your art you bed I’d hold you accountable under my system of values.
**
Ok, that begs the question, “why is the country the property of Christians and not pagans?” You know, throughout all of my history, political science, and current affairs courses, not once was it ever revealed that the country (Canadian or the US) was owned by Christians. So where are you coming up with this “you’re under my roof, gotta live by my rules” theory?
Then Bucky writes:
**Well, In Minnesota, you can’t go to a liquor store on Sunday. Okay, you can GO, but they’re closed. We had a thread some time ago about goverment facilities closing for Christian holidays. We swear oaths on Bibles. Bigamy is prohibited. Cannibalism is banned. You can’t sacrifice a chicken. The flag is called “sacred” by some (which justifies protecting it). **
Well…prohibition of cannibalism is not only in the domain of religion. Society has many, many, many, many reasons to forbid humans eating humans.
As for swearing oaths on bibles:
I don’t know where the idea that we swear on bibles in courtrooms came from, but it’s not done now. Perhaps it was done at some point in out countries past, but if you watch Court TV or something you will never see a bible. That would violate the Separation of Church and State.
Also, if you look in the Constitution, you’ll see that the Presidential Oath dioesn’t mention God. Swearing on the bible is optional for a President.
You must have missed what I wrote. The example I used was a desert island. To one degree or another I'd make him live according to my values. If he took my my nice spear I made to kill a wild pig with I'd enforce my own law and take it back. In fact I might even punish him for the theft. I never wrote that this nation was the property of Christians, that's something you read in my statement that just wasn't there.
Marc