Well, okay: now we’re got something we can talk about within the context of the faith, that is relevant to the discussion without killing it.
I would have guessed that “Faith without works is dead” would be in the top 100 Bible quotes, but maybe not. Just shows how very, very many passages in the Bible are memorable and quotable.
That is the way it was in NYC.
That is not the way it is here in Podunk south Georgia.
As much as you are correct that I cast my net too large, that I hate too many of them.
To the same degree do you yourself underestimate the strong Fundamentalist Evangelistic forces still at play in the USA in 2015.
Over 40% of Americans do not believe in evolution. They believe in Creationism, full out. Only 19% of Americans believe in strict evolution with no help from god.
Why would it be? If you have 2 coats give one to the poor is not on the list. Judge not lest ye be judged is not on the list. Loan money with no expectation of reward is not on the list. Be kind to those who mistreat you for anyone can be kind to a friend… is not on the list. Be slow to anger and quick to forgive… yep, not on the list.
If you’re talking about a Catholic picked at random,the odds are he can’t even name the four gospels, so his opinion isn’t worth much.
If you’re talking about official Church teaching, you’re simply wrong. Galileo was convicted, centuries before evangelicals existed, because the heliocentric theory wasjudged “formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts many places the sense of Holy Scripture, according to the literal meaning of the words and according to the common interpretation and understanding of the Holy Fathers and the doctors of theology.” My emphasis. A geocentric view isn’t essential to any important tenet of Christianity, so this makes it pretty clear that the Vatican of the early 1600’s thought that every word in the Bible that wasn’t OBVIOUSLY meant as poetry or metaphor should be taken literally, even if it had nothing to do with the core teachings.
And the current Catechism says that while there may be more than one layer of meaning, all other senses are based on the literal.
Nobody has ever claimed that the Bible doesn’t contain any poetry, parables, or figures of speech. And it’s also true that some famous scholars and theologians of late antiquity have questioned the literal truth of narratives like the seven days of creation. But it is a fiction that the vast majority of Christians never took such passages literally, or only started doing it as a reaction to 19th-century scientific discoveries that made atheism more tenable. On the contrary, that claim is itself a reaction to modern science, because sophisticated Christians don’t want to admit that 99% of Christians have believed the Bible reliable in matters of science and history for the last 2000 years.
If you want to say that the (many) parts of the Bible that are clearly wrong about science, history, geography, or morality are not to be taken literally, fine, I don’t see any other way an intelligent and educated person can reconcile his faith with modern knowledge. And since most Christians today know next to nothing about anything in the Bible other than what they’ve seen in movies, it’s a non-issue for them. Your portrayal of Christians as amateur theologians debating the intricacies of possible meanings applies to probably less than 10% of lay Christians.
But you go too far when you claim that those passages were obviously meant to be allegorical, because it was not obvious at all to Christians in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, until science made a literal interpretation seem ridiculous. And you go too far when you say that pre-Reformation Christians did not take them literally, when in fact a public denial of the literal truth of any part of the Bible was extremely dangerous to your freedom and health for at least a thousand years.
There I agree with you. Note I said if they’re NOT bothering anyone. If they are trying to make everyone follow their beliefs, then I have a major problem with that. And don’t tell me I underestimate it. I may not live in the Bible Belt, but Rick Santorum was my senator. (We voted his loser ass out, thank god). I don’t think anyone would deny it’s a problem here in the U.S. But painting everyone with the same brush doesn’t help.
If you’d been around this board as long as I have, you’d know this is a major topic around here. 
(Anyone remember His4Ever?)
Say it isn’t so.
The linked list shows several selections from James. 4 of them- #57, 65, 78 &79.
Oh, Jas is James… ok
57 - Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
65 - Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
78- Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
79- because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.
hmmm… and not a single one about helping other people…
I was going to respond to an earlier post by you, but glad you agree it does matter what they think, because their beliefs do affect us. E.g., they vote, they also get elected to federal, state, local levels, and school boards. They are responsible for a lot of content in our school texts. And quite frankly, after seeing the highlight reel of the Republican debate last night, surprised it doesn’t scare the jeebies out of everyone, especially when the leading contender in the polls right now doesn’t even accept evolution. But that is the interesting part, it appeals to the heart of their base. Most conservatives refuse to accept evolution, and they know that most atheists are evolutionists, and it’s no great secret the amount of tommyrot they dish out. There is a reason atheists are the least trusted group in America. Do we deserve that label or did they help paint this picture?
Really big book, chock full of quotables. (So is Alice in Wonderland…) So, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that any one quote isn’t on the top 100 list. 100 isn’t enough to encompass the Bible.
I’m not sure you are getting my point. I’m not sure, really, if I want to go full bore with the hate on about it either… but I find it hard to resist… my point is:
All of the most famous passages from the bible are about (1)the Lord giving you strength, or, (2)passing the message of the glory of the Lord on to others. That as a simplified version, is accurate I think. We would like to say… well of course people want to rely on the Lord and there is nothing wrong with that. If the Lord gives you strength telling others about it, nothing wrong with that.
But the list is essentially, 100% theological and 0% action or charity. You would hope some “do good for the poor” would show up. It is not even on the list, once. This is why I think religion is self serving and not the noble pursuit many make it out to be.
Was that enough, clear enough without too much anger?
Okay, I see your point. But to me, it’s a major-league “so what?”
If anything, it shows how differently people can interpret the Bible! So a whole lot of people get “I am a jealous God” ahead of “If he asks for your coat, give him also your robe.” Bummer, but it’s people.
The lesson I take away from this is: try to encourage the good. Pay attention to what is beneficial. Don’t get swept up by anger.
(“Hostility is a loco-motive. Don’t step in front of it.” Dan O’Neill.)
The fact that a great many Christians do, in fact, emphasize love, caring, devotion, charity, and compassion makes me happy. The other kind – Fred Phelps and all – should not be used as a scourge against them. (Just as I would not care for Atheism to be judged by that dipshit university shooter. Ick!)
A kind of Golden Rule can apply here, to the benefit of all.
I’m slightly curious why you asked me how moderate and liberal Christians think about these issues if your only response was to just rip it apart? Would you have cared at all what the answer was? Do you actually want to know or just to prove your point?
I’m actually serious. What’s the point of my explaining how I see things if I can’t see you actually being interested in what I say for what it is? Your original post actually seemed like you were interested, rather than looking for more springboards for attack.
But anyways, yes I do think it’s important to look at the full scope of Scripture. The Old Testament may not have been about Jesus, but the New Testament is a reinterpretation of the Old Testament in light of the arrival of Jesus. And I think it is a perfectly valid Christian way of reading the Old Testament in that prism.
Calvin likes to say that God approached people where they were and only gave them as much as they could comprehend. Like a father with a child. Calvin refers to Genesis as “God’s babytalk”. I see Scripture in that way, the Spirit continued to reveal God’s will as people were ready for it. It is acknowledged, for instance, that slavery abolitionists were led by evangelical Christians (Wilberforce in the UK, a whole bevy of them in the US), so they didn’t just follow the modern secular trends if that’s your idea.
I suggest your read up on Roman morality. Especially pertaining to those who were not the privileged class. Sarah Ruden’s acclaimed “Paul Among the People” is must reading here.
Fuck yeah it scares the hell out of me. Ever see the movie “Idiocracy”? I sometimes wonder if Mike Judge was psychic.
Well, I’m glad for you that you can look at both sides of the coin as being positive… maybe that is something I can aspire too.
I think this sells ancient mankind desperately short. It appears to be special pleading, making an excuse for the Bible’s shortcomings.
We could trivially have comprehended “The sun is at the center of the solar system.” We were desperately ready to comprehend “Wash your hands, especially when tending a woman who has given birth.”
It is commonplace for people (I am not saying you’re one of them) to claim that the prohibition on Pork was to spare people from diseases. But if so, why not a decree for washing hands, which would have prevented a hundred times more diseases?
I cannot see the Bible as anything other than a product of its time, as human as the Iliad, as mortal as the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and as wonderful as the Saga of Gilgamesh. High literature, but falling terribly short of any claim to omniscient authorship.
Don’t you know, this is how we fish in these parts, we set the bait, wait for bites, then reel you in before flaying you alive. I actually found Voyager’s post # 59 brilliant. If you have reasons for thinking the bible wonderful and inspirational, I hope you’ll show which scriptures did it for you, because I too, would like to hear it. Everyone pretty much knows fundamentalists take on scripture, they are all too vocal about it. But I find it rare for a moderate or liberal Christian to ever expound much on their view, all I know is they at least are not the pests the fundamentalists are, but still am puzzled why you cling to it, and identify with the Christian label. From other liberals, I’ve been told, it’s because he sacrificed his life for us. He was a good teacher. He was a very wise, good, decent and moral man, something along those lines. Some have maybe even abandoned that he was resurrected, and just find something useful about some of the stories. Each is different on their take.
From my experience, they hold their cards close to their chest, and rarely let anyone in. Many are real good about being vocal against fundamentalists, letting us know you can’t be so much a literalist, okay we get that. While they may not be as many literalists from what experience I’ve had with them, they are every bit as good at making the bible out to be something completely different than what it really is saying, giving it far more praise and credit than what it deserves. I realize it was a different time and era, many were a victim of their times, can’t fault them for that. There are some good things in there, we can all acknowledge, but also a good proportion of bad things, that don’t deserve anybody’s admiration and praise.
This is an excellent example of what Voyager was talking about. Christians finding inspiration from the bible, in this instance to be slavery abolitionists. Not arguing that some Christians were abolitionists, not arguing that they found inspiration, but how and why? Particularly when Jesus was pro slavery, in fact, even more so than the OT. Also note that in the south many pro-slavery Christians were doing the opposite and had plenty of scripture support to back up their pro-slavery stance and was the source of their inspiration. This is important to note, is it not? Many felt like it kept us in the war longer.
In many ways Jesus was an improvement over the OT god, but who wouldn’t be? This would have been a good time to speak out against slavery, particularly if he was, who he said he was. And in one big way he was even more monstrous than the god portrayed in the OT, and that is, he wished eternal fire and punishment for anyone that didn’t follow him. Bertrand Russell once commented, I don’t think he ever said a kind word towards his mother. When I see Christians as pro-family, I’d like to know how Jesus inspired them in this regard, being in that he never took a family of his own. He had bigger plans, more inspirations, but he still screwed up the end-times prophecy. And of course he believed in charity, this is only natural, because he was always on the receiving end of it, having never held down a job himself. He was a full-blown exorcist, and he engaged in other tomfoolery, which in many ways he was a victim of his own times, but still puzzled what in those stories that causes grown men and women to idolize and worship him so much still, in this day and age.
I have not done so.
It tends to make sense to me in that even now we need to be ready to hear certain things. I don’t necessarily mean religious-wise - for example, the movement against mass incarceration in the US, which is now supported by many folks on both sides of the political aisle. These arguments against the Drug War (such as in Michelle Alexander’s book “The New Jim Crow”) would have fallen completely flat in the 1990s. We weren’t ready.
I think the problem in inherent in your request - though I thank you for asking what I believe. It isn’t necessary any particular scriptures (though granted I got really teary eyed the first time I read “I am the bread of life” passage in the Gospel of John). I found that in reading Scripture that the work as a whole was entirely awe inspiring. I believe that these were the stories of God’s people trying to describe what God had done for them, inspired by the Holy Spirit (though not dictated), and within those stories the undercurrent (with a lot of exceptions, of course, but societies 3000-4000 years ago were a bit less empathetic than ours) is of caring for those who are marginalized. I was struck when reading the Old Testament how often there would be calls to take care of the poor, the orphans and the widows. How often, over and over again, there was this call for unity among the people of Israel (I don’t think that the people were ready for the idea that everyone, everywhere was to be blessed equally). This notion that blessing wasn’t something you merely received, but you gave out as well - The people of Israel were blessed so they could bless others. I was kind of unprepared for that (from all I heard about the Old Testament - lots of liberal Christians kind of treat the OT as if its an embarrassing drunk uncle they wish they could get rid of ;)). That doesn’t even get into the New Testament, of course, but it was the Old Testament that really struck me. It completely changed my notion of charity and caring for the poor - something I continue to grow and struggle with.
We liberal Christians allow for doubt and questioning, so of course you are going to get different takes ;). Reminds me of the joke about Jews interpreting scripture - As 2 Jews, get 3 opinions :). I believe in the physical resurrection, FWIW - I think, as Paul says, it is what gives our faith meaning. His resurrection, physically, points to the future victory of good over evil, where we will all triumph over all the things that cause suffering and evil.
I’m not a penal substitution atonement person (the idea that Jesus took the wrath of God for us so we don’t end up in Hell). My atonement theology is referred as Christus Victor - that Christ death and resurrection was in order to conquer sin, death, and the Devil from the inside, so that it would have no more hold over humans (this is a slightly different, but older way of viewing sin than the fundies, in that sin is something that holds individuals back and prevents them from moving forward in their lives).
One of things I really appreciated about the Bible will seem somewhat counter-intuitive - the contradictions and the horrible stuff. When there was a decision on what was to be considered ‘canon’ in the 100s, there was no attempt to scrub the old books clean based on a progressed morality. They decided to keep all that stuff still in there, even if it was incongruous with the message Jesus shared - because it was all a part of the story of God and God’s people; the good and the bad, the uplifiting and the horrible, the joyful and the depraved. I mean, heck, some of the great ‘heroes’ of the Bible did horrible things - David, a man after God’s own heart, killed a general in his army because David got his wife pregnant. There is a realness in keeping that that I appreciate. That life is messy and life with God can be messier still.
And the Jews from time immemorial and Christians today continue to keep two contradictory versions of Creation in the first book of Scripture. Because both stories were important in their understanding of who God is and who they were. That’s pretty cool, to me at any rate.
Was Jesus particularly pro-slavery? He didn’t really speak on it it seems. In any case, there is enough language about liberation from slavery that Exodus became an uplifting narrative to African-Americans pre as well as post slavery. Martin Luther King, Jr. liked to use that book often. African-Americans also used the examples of equality found in the New Testament in their fight against Jim Crow.
Did Southern whites try to use Scripture to justify slavery? Of course. But I’m not sure why you’d think it kept the Civil War going longer. People who would lose economic benefit from slavery were bound to fight to keep it. It also seems that some of the strident Biblical defense of slavery was an attempt to prevent folks like William Garrison, Charles Finney, Sojourner Truth, etc (not to mention all the British voices - Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley [yes, that John Wesley], etc). from claiming the Scriptural high ground. One of the Second Great Awakening’s main points was declaring that all people are equal. That’s quite threatening to economic interests ;).
I think most historians will indicate that the abolitionist movement was began by Quakers and Evangelicals in the early 1800s who were convinced that God’s will was against slavery. It began as a very religious movement. An example of how the faith can grow and progress due to people searching their hearts for what they feel God is demanding from them.
The same thing that causes many atheists to indicate that while they may not believe in the divinity of Jesus, they think he had a great message? Love each other (even your enemies), forgive others, treat everyone with grace and understanding. And that you are loved, no matter who you are - in Jesus’s time who would have hung out with lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes and loved them fully and completely as they would any righteous person? As for me, the message of love and forgiveness freed me from my crap that I’ve been carrying around and that has been weighing me down for years (we are always our own worst critics). And while I fall short of being as loving and forgiving as I’d like to be, I feel His grace telling me it’s ok, and I can try again and hopefully do better this time. Being loved for who you are, regardless of what you have done or how you feel you’ve failed gives me amazing peace.
Holy crap that was a lot of words… anyways that came straight from the heart. Not to convert or, really, even to justify. Just my views and thoughts on the matter, honestly trying to answer your questions.