This question is for my Sunday School class. We’ve noticed that many of the dates in the Bible are in the form of “in the third month of the fourth year of King Whatshisname”. Is there a good way to convert these to our current calendar system? (A reputable timeline or a computer conversion routine perhaps?) It would be much more understandable to tell them these events were approximately spring 600 BC, for example. (OK, maybe this isn’t a great debate, but I figured that the folks who would know would be here, due to the religious nature of the question.) Thanks!
MikeHardware: Most major biblical events are listed by date in the better bibles and concordances. You may need to acquaint yourself with the “BCE” method of dating, if you haven’t already.
As for the ancient methods of establishing dates and times, I’m assuming that the references are to Hebrew kings.
If so, I’ll defer to the good Rabbi, if he’d be so kind…
-David
Forget about biblical dates. They never put out. Always waitin’ 'til marriage…
Archealogists use what’s called the Julian Period (as do astonomers) to absolutely align all dates in history. Not the same as the Julian calendar, it is a calendar that uses a single day number from a point in time about 4000 BCE. That way when adjustments are made such as the shift from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar, things can be kept in line.
Converting dates based on regnal years is tricky and there is much debate as to when exactly a regnal period may have begun.
The most accurate are when astronomical phenomenon are associate with a particular year, such as eclipses.
Still there is no pat answer except finding a good book (preferably recent) on that particluar culture.
I put my favorite timeline on the board within the last 3 weeks and now can’t find it. I’ll either reprint it here or email it to you.
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
This week, ** Science ** magazine has a set of articles on archeology in the Holy Land. One of the matters discussed is the difficulty, and controversy around the actual dates of biblical events. The example most discussed is the reign of David, and Solomon. Turns out that the surviving records of concurrent societies did not note the kingdom of Solomon the Wise, however great it was reported to be in the bible.
Current Hebrew scholars place the reign of these kings in the tenth century, BCE. The monolithic structures in the locations reported to be included in that kingdom have been assumed to be part of the remains of Solomon’s fortification of outposts. At least one archeologist now expresses doubts that that is true, based on the absence of evidence of commerce in pottery which would very likely have occurred if the kingdom of Solomon were contemporaneous with Egyptian and other societies known to have inhabited, or invaded nearby sites. To account for that isolation, it would seem that Solomon must have been at least half a century later, and perhaps less influential than Hebrew records indicate.
I was somewhat surprised to find out that there is no archeological record of David and Solomon. To learn that what little is being done in the research of such matters is so inconclusive leaves a lot of room for disparity in dating events reported in the Bible. In addition, it seems that the number of social groups that have lived in, or passed through the land now known as Israel is a bit larger than I knew previously. Caananites were only one people in that area that left remains of fairly organized societies. The dating of events is much more difficult than the simple age of particular artifacts, as well, since the very concept of international trade was invented here, and flourished as early as did the technologies which produced the artifacts.
The chosen people, if the evidence of paleontology is any guide, were not chosen for contemporary notoriety in world history. No one much noticed the Hebrews during the period of time when they were not subject peoples of other societies. Those societies made little note of their neighbors, in general, and almost none in the case of the Hebrews. The fruits of wider renown were to wait until recent centuries.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
Not all those who wander are lost.
–J. R. R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
You know, Tris, I think you’re wrong on the David and Solomon thing. Last year I took a course called Historical Geography of Jerusalem, wherein we traipsed around Jerusalem, looking around. The very first place we went was Ir David, the City of David. Ir David, which is primarily composed of rubble, is the oldest part of Jerusalem - archaeologists believe it to be about 5,000 years old (which sounds like a lot, but there are nearby places which are MUCH older, like Jericho, which is 10,000). I distinctly recall my professor explaining that David didn’t build the city, he conquered it from the Jebusites 3,000 years ago (which is the age that many people tend to attribute Jerusalem), and that there was indeed evidence that said that David did exist. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I still have my textbook from the class. Next time I go home, I’ll look it up.
~Kyla
“Anger is what makes America great.”
I remember reading (and don’t ya love it–I don’t remember where) that for the first time ever, some extra-biblical evidence has been found for King David’s existance. This was three or four years ago, and it was an inscription on some pottery (IIRC) that mentioned David’s name.
-No, I’m not THAT David…hmmm…no, I’m not that David, EITHER!
I would love to hear more. I was quite surprised, but have mentioned it because some of the reports were so vehement. Some archeologists still hold the biblical story to be historic, but others doubt that Solomon or David were more than tribal chiefs. There is much non-scientific furor overlying all of this, of course.
Nothing would be better than more evidence, and more dispassionate examination.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
“If I have not seen so far as others, it is because there were giants standing on my shoulders.”
–Unknown
Here’s the timeline i like:
A TIME LINE OF HEBREW HISTORY TO 332 B.C.E.
1800 Abraham comes to Cannan
1260 Moses leads the Hebrews from Egypt
|
|The period of Judges
|
1050 Wars with the Philistines begin
1020 Saul is King
1000 David is King
David conquers Jerusalem
961 Soloman is King
922 The Kindgom is divided into Israel and Judah
722 Assyrians conquer Israel
586 Babylonians conquer Judah
The Babylonian Captivity
539 Cyrus the Persian conquers Babylon
|
|Palestine ruled by Persia
|
322 Alexander the Great conquers Palestine
My fifth grade text is:
Allyn and Bacon, Inc. The Human Adventure: Four World Views.
Pub. 1971 and (sadly) out of print. I'm trying to find a
teacher's manual for it since fifth graders didn't
get a lot of footnotes/sources in this text.
If you put in many more dates than these, you’ll get a mish mash looking chart - with less visual recognition of what’s important. Stick a big chart on the wall and let the kids fill in the names, won’t look too bad.
The traditional Jewish time line, according to the Talmud, goes as follows:
3760 BCE - Creation of World
2704 BCE - Flood of Noah
1812 BCE - Abraham Born
1712 BCE - Isaac Born
1652 BCE - Jacob Born
1522 BCE - Entire house of Jacob relocates to Egypt
1312 BCE - Israelites leave Egypt, Sinai event
1272 BCE - Israelites enter Canaan
832 BCE - Solomon builds first Holy Temple
422 BCE - Nebucadnezzar destroyed first Holy Temple, exiles Jews tp Babylon
352 BCE - Darius allows Holy Temple to be rebuilt, many Jews return to Israel/Judea
70 CE - Second Holy Temple destroyed by Romans
This might not be as precise as you need, and some of these dates might be off by a year or two due to certain calendar oddities, but this is the framework within which Orthodox Jews place Biblical events.
Chaim Mattis Keller
cmkeller@compuserve.com
“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
Re: Archaeological evidence for David:
I don’t have the exact citation, but my understanding is that a carving was found containing a reference to a “king of David’s house”, which, while not concrete proof of David himself, definitely lessens the likelihood that David is entirely fictional.
Chaim Mattis Keller
In response to the OP:
Prior to the Captivity, the Israelites kept a civil calendar that began in the spring, as well as the religious one that began in the fall (on Rosh Hoshanah), IIRC exactly six months off from each other. “In the Xth month of the Yth year of King Wingnut…” refers to this civil calendar, with one intersting glitch:
The first year runs from the day King Wingnut takes the throne until the (civil) New Year. The second year and thereafter run from New Year to New Year.
Again IIRC, the months are the ordinals from the New Year, even in the first year, so that if King Wingnut takes the throne in “January” (pardon me for not having Hebrew months memorized) there are no first through ninth months in his first year, only tenth through twelfth.
Chaim, please to revise and correct where I didn’t RC or have misstated something. Thanx.
Polycarp:
Nothing to correct on that post of yours. The new year for Jewish kings was the beginning of Nisan, the month containing Passover, i.e., the spring. The year as beginning in Tishrei (the fall, when we celebrate Rosh Hashana) was considered the cut-off for certain agricultural purposes, and was the new year as far as non-Jewish kings (from the Jewish perspective) were counted.
Chaim Mattis Keller
RE: The Non-OP: David and all.
Now, I’m wondering what got the article into Science.
Stone Age to Christianity (paperback c 1957, pp 292-293 says, "Not a single building nor object from Palestinian soil can yet be attributed with confidence to David; probably the so-called “Jebusite’ revetment of the recently excavted city-wall of early Jerusalem dates in part from his time.”
This goes on to say that they are dating the temple and palace by comparative archaelogical investigations “…can now clarify many details of the construction and decoration of the Temple and palace of the king, by comparison with similar remains excavated in other nearly contemporary sites of Syria and Palestine.”
And “The glowing accounts of the book of Kings may be slightly over-drawn, but…that they (glowing accounts) are relatively correct.”
So I don’t get what is go news-worthy about what I’ve heard so far.
They didn’t paint, draw, carve, metal working, do pottery of note- what’s left? Psalms and Writings?
Psst! Actually the crafts were supposed to be pretty good esp. at Soloman’s time. Check your email, I sent parts of the mag. discussed above/below (What’s correct for this media?)if I could type your address, it is probably there now.
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
On the existence of David: There had been, indeed, a group of archaeologists who claimed David never existed, because no artifacts had been found that could distinctly be assigned to him.
A few years ago, a carving has been found that mentions “house of David” (house in the sense of family, based on the context.) This is taken by most people as a clear indication that David did indeed exist, but there are a few die-hards in the archaeological community who still dispute the significance of that carving.
There is a fairly good article on this in Biblical Archaeology in the last year.
Archaeology is a living, breathing science/art, with new discoveries each year that are expanding our knowledge of the past. The absence of specific items is not surprising: Jerusalem, for instance, where one would expect to find remnants of David, was burned and destroyed and rebuilt at least a dozen times. And has been pretty much continuously occupied. Hence, lots of evidence would have been destroyed over the centuries. Further, you can’t just dig wherever you’d like, you’d be digging through someone’s living room.
On the Dating Question:
I’m not sure what dates the OP is looking for. The most recent dates – destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, say, and after – can be pretty well anchored to outside events, and so dated. Assuming the Book of Kings gives an accurate chronolgy, it is therefore possible to assign dates to each of the kings listed.
These dates can be off, of course – years weren’t measured precisely, and if King A died in the tenth year of his reign (say in June), and was succeeded by King B, then the tenth year of the reign of King A and the first third year of the reign of King B would coincide, and we might not know that, so the count could easily be off by a few years, either way.
Most chronologies put Solomon around 950 BC and David around 1000 BC, give or take a decade.
When you go back further than that, the chronology is not so exact through the period of Judges. For instance, “40 year” periods occur a lot in the text, but 40 is a magic number meaning generational change, so the count can’t be taken as literal (IMHO). Thus, dating the earlier Biblical events becomes somewhat problematic.
People who take every word of every book of the Bible to be literally true have come up with their chronologies, of course. Jois cites one, CMKeller cites another. If you’re talking before about 900 BC, you gotta expect some fuzz around the edges.
Even people who DON’T believe every word of every book of the Bible to be literally true can locate chronologies in text books.
Goodness knows, that’s what they are for…
I know Solomon was a throne name - wasn’t David a title?
CK:
And there are a few of us, such as I, who think that the mention of “a king of the the House of David” doesn’t prove David actually lived, but that there was a royal family which attributed to itself the title of “House of David.” You know, sort of like the current monarch’s family in the United Kingdom–they just chose a name.