Big Love 1/31/10

Cafe Society
61

I’ve wondered who is and is not sincere in their faith on the show.

I think Lois has long since figured out “this is a crock” and is just trying to keep floating with the cards she’s been dealt, and her brother (though a polygamist) seemed that way as well.

Frank is devout but would have been equally devout as a Nazi, Klansman, Black Panther or Weatherman so long as it’s a system where he has more power and influence than most other men he knows.

Sarah’s getting there if she’s not already there and clearly didn’t want anything to do with her father’s church in her own life.

Roman seemed to be absolutely sincere in some of his teachings but also absolutely corrupt as need be. When he said he’d been kissed by God I think he was telling the truth as he saw it, and I think he really did consider Rhonda his divine gift. He’s so old it’s hard to imagine him being terribly lustful when he already had a harem, so it was probably more like Rulon Jeffs who married child brides when he was in his 80s it was more for show and senile ‘revelation’ than lust. (Jeffs shown herewith two of his teenaged brides when he was in his 80s; I don’t believe he produced children with any of the wives he married when he was ancient.)

Bill absolutely believes he’s doing the will of God, which makes him the most dangerous; you always got the sense that Roman at least knew when he was circumnavigating his own teachings while Bill makes it up as he goes along and calls it right.

Barb has doubts about the church she and Bill are in but clearly believes Mormon teachings. She was terrified about being cast into outer darkness.

Nikki I think is a true believer at some times and knows she’s a charlatan at others and ultimately doesn’t really know what’s real and what isn’t and is on a collision course with total madness.

Margene would become a Shintoist or a Scientologist or a Mayan priestess if Bill told her to; her devotion is more to the family than to the teachings it seems and she loves being part of the conspiracy even (though she’s learning its drawbacks).

Ben has been taught all his life that erections=revelations so he’s currently going with the flow.

I couldn’t tell if Alby really was emotional that he won’t be gay in the afterlife or if he was just playing the other dude. I think Alby is far less devout than his father at any rate, probably more agnostic, but being the Prophet has too many perks to risk being honest.

Thoughts?

62

Something I’ve often wondered how Mormons reconciled during “The Principle” days or even now for those who still believe it was divinely mandated:

The Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 (written in 1843) has this to say about polygamy:

This is echoed in sermons by Brigham Young and others in the Journal of Discourses and other sources. So, it is alright if a man takes other wives so long as they are virgins and the first wife consents, and the purpose of doing so is for a godly to produce many children.

Problems:

1- Most women under polygamy produced fewer children than most monogamous women; this was well documented by sociologist Kimball Young (Brigham’s grandson), who though not a polygamist himself (I’m not even sure if he was Mormon by the time he was middle-aged or older) devoted his career to its study. I believe his numbers were- on average- 5 children for a plural wife, 7 for a monogamous wife.

2- Many if not most of Joseph Smith’s plural wives were not virgins but the wives of other men: Zina Huntington Jacobs (mentioned on previous page), her sister Prescindia Huntington Buell, Sarah Bates Pratt (Orson’s senior wife), Marinda Hyde (wife of Apostle Orson Hyde) and many others (here’s one list) were all taken from other men; most had children by those other men before they were taken into Smith’s bed.

3- His wife Emma Smith was absolutely not consenting to many of these unions- she probably did not even know about the early ones, and later denied they even took place (though few reliable historians or biographers believe her on this point). By some accounts she physically assaulted some of his plural wives.

4- He had no known offspring with his plural wives; there were some children who were rumored to be his but to date DNA testing has only disproven a couple of the claims- it has to prove any. (Sarah Pratt and some other apostates who were in Nauvoo claim that there were several abortions performed on his plural wives and other women.)

Brigham Young followed in his footsteps: several of his wives, including his first plural wife (third wife but first plural) Lucy Decker, were married to other men and already mothers when he wed them, and as mentioned he dissolved Zina’s marriage to another Mormon again to take her into his collection of wives, after sending the other man to Europe on a mission (a less bloody version of David and Uriah). Same with Heber Kimball, the Pratt brothers and other prominent early Mormons; Parley Pratt(early apostle and an ancestor of Mitt Romney) was actually killed by the legal husband of one of his plural wives.

Like Pratt, Brigham Young ultimately paid the price for taking other men’s women when he thwarted the engagement of a young lady named Amelia Folsom, who he convinced to marry him instead and consequently he spent the last 15 years of his life probably wishing to hell he hadn’t. She was a shrew with a capital bitch; to give an idea, she poured a pitcher of hot tea in his lap when he told her it was a sin, she threw a sewing machine down the stairs at him when it wasn’t a Singer, and other such little wifely protests, and while he was a notoriously stingy man (as men with 60 or more immediate family members sometimes need be) whose wives frequently complained about the dumps he lodged them in or else having to share a home with a dozen other wives, 'this is the place’she got out of him.
Anyway, that’s trivia, but the question: how was this justified?

63

But “my religion told me” isn’t an excuse–not to me, anyway. Otherwise, couldn’t we commend a man who thinks his “god” thinks it’s the right thing to kill an abortion performing doctor? I mean, your religion can be used for any justification. To my mind, Bill’s religion is just a bunch of words he says. And when he’s super horny or needs something, he calls upon “heavenly father.” I feel like the show is pretty much showing us how “God told me to” is meaningless. When JJ asks Alby if he can marry Adaleen, Alby says yes and then tells his mother it’s heavenly father’s plan for them. When Bill wants to run for office or take a wife or open a casino, it’s all heavenly father’s plan. It’s as laughable as me saying that little aliens speak to me and tell me to do random things and that because what they say and do is righteous, that I’m some kind of moral guide.

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I think it’s clear that this is the opposite of what the show is presenting.

Sampiro, I agree with most of your list except Alby leaves me wondering. I think his beliefs are totally fake, but he seemed a little more genuinely relieved than I would have expected at the thought that gayness isn’t carried to the afterlife.

Oh you wound me.

It’s not that I need to defend Bill on every little thing. It’s that every Big Love thread on the dope starts the same way, with an avalanche of how evil Bill is. And often they are for the stupidest reasons, like your retarded “he’s committing fraud!”

It gets frustrating to wade through them, so a couple times a season I snap. Sorry if that bothers you so much you need to resort to personal digs. But if it bothered you enough that you’ll no longer participate, well, that’s fewer ridiculous cases of the vapors I have to wade through to get to the good posts by our resident (ex-)mormons.

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Wound you? Personal digs? What on earth are you on about?

Let’s try this again and maybe the third time will be a charm, huh? When I was talking about the fraud I was talking about DON who always seems to want to remind everyone of what is right and wrong or moral or not. Not Bill. DON. I realize that this is only the third time I’m saying it, but I’m hoping that you get it this time.

Also, your strange insistence that committing fraud is no big deal is mind boggling. In the grand scheme of crime it doesn’t rank up there with murder, rape and molesting but it.is.still.a.crime. Why else would they be concerned about it being found out? Why… it’s because it is against the law. So you can continue to act as if I’m insane for suggesting that committing this fraud is aganist the law but that is a fact, not an opinion. So you can foolishly thing it’s “retarded” fraud but that’s the law, Skippy.

And please do not try to explain it away saying the fraud was to take care of the family. Cut back your spending or increase your income like the rest of the non-crime committing workers of the world if you need to get health insurance for people in your family who aren’t covered legally. That isn’t the same as the crime of polygamy which I can see as a direct conflict with their religious beliefs. This is purely a crime of greed and convenience. I’m not suggesting that they be put to death for it, just that it is against the morals of the church they claim to hold so dear. Just like being part of Weber Gaming. Don told Bill that was against the church but I’ll be damned if he didn’t get right on board. So I’m quite sorry but if anyone is having a ridiculous case of the vapors I think you only need to look at your own posts. You’re ignoring facts so that you can have your melodramatic moments whiteknighting a television character. I’ve personally never understood why Bill gets as much grief around here as he does so you’re bitching out the wrong person, but hey… have your fun.

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Sampiro - I mostly agree with you except I don’t think there’s really any proof that Frank has any religious convictions at all. I think he’s just a shyster and cynic. Everything he ever says is dripping with sarcasm and scorn, and he obviously lives for petty little struggles and power trips. He also swears a lot (back in the second season he was always talking about “Eddie the cocksucker”) and is an all around crude guy who doesn’t seem to have much regard for anything. Remember when he pissed in Bill’s sinks? Even the kitchen sink? Actually, he acts like a drunk without actually being one - that’s the best summary I could give of Frank’s demeanour.

What about Joey? Do you think he is sincere in his faith?

67

Let’s take this down a notch so it doesn’t get personal, please.

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To me and most everyone else it’s pretty obvious the show is trying to make Bill look incredibly slimy. Do you agree we’re supposed to eye roll when Alby invokes heavenly father to tell Adaleen why she must marry JJ, her daughter’s former husband? Bill’s listening to the same “heavenly father”…

Personally I don’t think the insurance thing was the great wrong. It’s not good, but what made me think that Bill was a real snake was the way he screwed over Don. Selling out your best friend, one of the few people who has followed him 100%? Just not cool.

There’s also the whole irony of him being a great family man and everyone cheering for him while we focus on his depressed looking son. Who actually came off looking pretty good when he tried to protect Margene by saying it was all his fault. It was only when Bill realized that Margene herself was attracted to his (closer in age to her son), that he saw his son was a threat, that Margene actually was attracted to Ben, and that he had to go.

Granted, the kids on the compound get thrown out even before that, but does it matter that this wasn’t “an innocent flirtation”? It’s still an older guy getting the heebie jeebies because one of his wives likes his son better than him.

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Ellis, I can buy that Bill’s not a hypocrite, as I think he does honestly believe (or is able to convince himself) that his every whim, no matter how stupid or selfish or potentially harmful to his family, is God’s will. But I think the rest of your defense of him is utter crap. Bill does A LOT of stupid, selfish stuff without ever sparing a thought about how it will affect his family, and his belief that his actions are ordained by God doesn’t make them any less stupid or selfish. A delusional asshole is still an asshole.

And I think it’s clear that the show is indeed presenting “God told me to” as being meaningless. I mean, God supposedly told Bill to marry Anna, and that just worked out swimmingly, didn’t it? Can you think of any “testimonies” Bill has had that have actually worked out to anyone’s benefit except Bill’s? I can’t.

70

I’m with Ellis Dee (for the most part) on this. Bill does mostly stay true to his religious convictions and I think the show is not about what a sleaze he is, it’s about the difficulty of living in accordance with your own unpopular principles and trying to find guidance from god when you’re cut off from any kind of spiritual community. To the extent Bill is a hypocrite, it’s mostly where Roman and Juniper Creek are concerned: he always says he doesn’t want to be like them, but as time goes on, he acts more and more like Roman.

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He’s one of the poorest written character imo, so it’s hardto judge him. A lot of back story to account for as well, such as how did a teenager so good at sports that he ultimately went pro (or was it college all-star? Whatever it was it was fairly big) and got off the compound ultimately go back to the place where his grandfather died under suspicious circumstances/his father’s an evil sleazebag/his sister was married against her will as an adolescent/his brother was thrown onto the streets of SLC as an adolescent/all the wives marry old men. It sure wasn’t for the money- he lives in near poverty- and not for love- his mother is a bitter old shrew who can take care of herself and Wanda would go wherever he went in the first place plus she’s crazy, not particularly attractive, and not particularly nice person so I can’t imagine it was a love match to begin with (and their child was born after the show began). Bill would certainly give him a job that would get him off the compound’s teat, and the whole “How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm now that they’ve seen Par-ree” thing would seem exponentialed for somebody from Juniper Creek who doesn’t have the commitments of a polygamist, so there’s part of his back story that’s missing that explains him better.

To answer the question though- I don’t think he’s capable of deep enough thoughts to really judge whether the Principle is real. He knows Roman was a sham of course, but more because of his actions than any theological insight.

If I were a writer on the show my back story for Joey would be one of two things:

-When he was a golden boy Roman sealed him to two women and he had children with them, but then when he got addicted to drugs they were taken from him and re-sealed, and he stays on the compound because it’s the only way he can see his children (though this would beg the “why was it never mentioned before” question- though they never mentioned Selma was Roman’s sister or Nikki had a husband and child before Bill before either and both were relevant to the plot and obvious “latter day” decisions)

or

-He’s being blackmailed, probably due to something he did while on drugs. If Roman had proof he had killed a dealer or been involved in another serious crime it could have brought him back.

or

-He’s in love with/was once romantically involved with a half-sister (one of Frank’s daughters) who has never before been mentioned and while they obviously cannot marry (actually they could since Frank’s name is probably not on her birth certificate, if she has a birth certificate) a combination of blackmail and continued love for said half-sib (now married of course) keeps him there.

Wanda of course is too barking mad to contemplate much beyond where her next poisoning opportunity is coming from.

72

Sampiro, I thought that the reason, part of the reason, he came back was that he was an alcoholic or at least had serious drinking problems. It’s mentioned in season one. I don’t know if he married Wanda before he left or whether he came back and married her. Initially wasn’t he more into monogamy, whereas Wanda genuinely believes in polygamy?

73

In a previous episode, Scott (has it said if he’s a Mormon?) mentioned the concept of community property to Lois now that she’s Frank’s legal wife, and she served Frank with papers (which led to violence of course). This was even when you first learned about his KFC franchise that’s been mentioned since, but they seem to have just dropped this plotline. Was it resolved but I missed it?

It would be an interesting lawsuit. On the one hand, she’d only been his wife for a year or so at the time she served him papers so it’s questionable how much community property she’d be entitled to, BUT when you tack on palimony/emotional and physical abuse/back child support (since it’s doubtful that he contributed much if anything even to the kids they raised) and the sure to be high profile nature of the case, a good attorney- especially one on the rise- would probably take and could probably make a case.

74

She believes in polygamy except when confronted with a sister wife; she came to love Kathy but only after contemplating killing her, then panicked when she feared Joey was a “one woman man”, so her illness (which I’m guessing is completely unmedicated except when she’s hospitalized) calls the shots. Or the anti Freeze as the case may be.

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If I’m not confusing characters, and Scott is Sarah’s husband, then he is former LDS. I believe Scott & Sarah met at an ExMo support group.

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Yep, at the University of Utah (he thought Sarah was a student). By the way what does Scott actually do for a living? I thought he was a grad student, but didn’t Sarah mention something about him working in Idaho? Is Sarah doing anything herself? :confused: She doesn’t seem to be working (except for helping Barb out at the casino, but that looked like a one time thing). Staying home all day with the baby didn’t look like it was a major problem for her. Is she supposed to be enrolled at the U or community college?

77

I might be making this up, but I thought Scott was a DJ.

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What was illegal? Who did they steal from? Bill owns HomePlus. The only thing that was about to be exposed was that there were fictitous employees on the payroll for health insurance purposes which was evidence of a polygamist lifestyle. HomePlus pays the premiums to the insurance company. No fraud against the insurance company. Bill needed Don to come out and say it was him, so that the media attention about polygamy would be deflected away from Bill.

79

At a minimum there would be tax fraud.

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Finally caught last weeks episode this morning. Bill is one cold SOB. Glad we all mostly agree. :slight_smile:

To bring back the Sopranos links, the guys often had “no show” jobs to provide them claimable income to pass a tax audit. Same thing for the wives here.

As for Joey, they’ve blamed some of his troubles on “post-concussion syndrome”…and being a compound boy all his life, he’s not quite as “worldly” as Bill. He played in the NFL and made a memorably bad play in a Super Bowl game. How he lost all his NFL money is unclear in my memory…whether he blew through it himself or if he got taken advantage of (perhaps by Roman)?