So…white conservatives get to?
I do see your point, but it’s a bit of a false equiv because of the power differential in society. I.e. because Whites enjoy a privileged place in American culture, it’s not offensive to make fun of their culture or speech.
But what makes you think it’s only white liberals saying this sketch crossed the line, and no actual asians that were offended?
FWIW I’m not white. So am I allowed to say I thought it was in bad taste?
I think its the power diff that MAKES it funny. Comedy is…something something contrasting expectations something something.
So Blazing Saddles is funny because its impossible. Eddie Murphy is funny because he’s placing the people with the social power in a supernatural situation (Amityville) and having them be stupid. “Gosh the walls are bleeding, that’s damn peculiar.” and the people with less power be smarter. “GET OUT.” “Too bad i can’t stay.”
So basically I’m saying it’s not offensive because its funny.
Is Spaceballs: “Comb the desert!!..we aint found shit!!” offensive? My 2017 self says “Mayyyyyybe??” But its also funny. And for what its worth, which is probably nothing, I think if you took a poll of liberals, you’d find that white liberals find it more offensive than black ones.
You’re allowed to say whatever you want.
I was responding to this specific statement by **astorian:
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I just think it’s weird how some white people seem to intuitively know what another oppressed minority is going to find offensive. It’s all totally subjective.
Whose opinion do we go by? The most offended? The least offended? If you aren’t white, and some other person who isn’t white disagrees with you, which one of you is '‘right’?
From my view, it’s a logical conundrum, one I’ve run into myself as a woman (or rather, seen other liberals run into.) When two women have roughly the same experience of gender oppression and have two different opinions about what should be done about it, who is right? If one woman finds a poor-taste joke offensive and the other doesn’t, who has the more accurate perception? How do we decide what’s offensive?
As I said re: Maher, I’m not personally offended but I can see how a reasonable person would be offended. And then someone else (also white) explained why nobody should be offended. So two white people had a conversation about whether or not black people should be offended, which seems kind of lame to me. I mean, it was an interesting conversation, but I don’t know the first thing about being black, so it’s really kind of a masturbatory exercise, isn’t it? And it smacks of a kind of paternalism, as white people have a really long history of deciding what conditions are acceptable for people of color.
But say the same debate went down between two black people. Who’s right?
I’m not commenting on the Colbert thing, just the phenomenon from a more broad perspective.
Oddly enough, I actually agree with Ice Cube’s explanation:
It is very situational. Very. I don’t use the term because I find it vulgar and crass and disgusting (especially when it was aimed at me). I have had friends and relatives use it to emphasize a point and that works for me, and yes, they get to say it because they’re black. As far as I know, my uncle Walter (a Belgium native, and about as white anyone gets, and has been a member of my black family by marriage since 1971) has never used the term while with my family and wouldn’t try; but if he did, he would be shut down immediately, and I would think less of him. And I love my uncle Walter. Random white guys using it, no. Just no.
I don’t defend Maher’s use of the word, but I think Maher deserves to be forgiven. He’s not coming up with the same old lame-assed tripe of: “Well Black people say it all the time, so why can’t I say it?!” A person’s history comes into play here. I think it’s been demonstrated that Maher is at least conscious of racism and its impact on people.
Moreover, he how he responded matters. Maher has accepted unequivocally that what he did was highly inappropriate and offensive, and he also invited African Americans on his show to confront him about it. He didn’t give some sorry-ass Twitter apology. He didn’t duck the outrage. That doesn’t mean the controversy is over and that people are ready to move on, but people can be forgiven.
And as I’ve commented before on other threads, I think this is exactly how the response to an occasionally offensive comment ought to play out. I don’t think people should have their careers destroyed over a mistake, and I disagree with firing someone or terminating them every time they say something that offends. But at the same time, you don’t just let it go either. Sure, there needs to be a willingness to forgive a mistake, and it can be a teachable moment. But hiding in cyberspace isn’t a teachable moment – nobody learns anything from their mistakes that way. There needs to be personal, face-to-face accountability. I think Maher fucked up, but I think he has atoned for it. Time will tell if he can avoid repeating it.
I’ve defended Bill Maher, and I still defend him, but when someone like Ice Cube proffers a thoughtful explanation for why this was hurtful, it’s not something I feel I can argue with. So I think where we’re left with is this: Maher threw out the phrase in an improvised moment on a live TV show, clearly meaning no harm (we know this from his background of being the furthest thing from a racist, strongly defending black voting rights vs. the “voter ID” crap, etc.), and if there is a broad consensus that it was wrong, so be it; he apologized, and taking all the facts into account, that should be the end of it. I’m genuinely mystified as to why this silly thing continues to have traction and the whining goes on and on. What the hell do they want? The demand that Maher be fired from his Emmy award winning show now in its 15th season is beyond absurd – the equivalent of calling for the death penalty for someone using a bad word. There really is such a thing as balance and perspective, and apparently some folks don’t have it.
Here’s the whole bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBPgXjkfBXM
Just watched last night show, which seems like it was 50% dedicated to his apology. Lordy, I hope we’re now past it. (Credit to Comey for that word.) It was an impromptu mistake, he meant no harm, and he apologized.
I think I actually respect him more than I did when this thread started.
“We” know this? You have a mouse in your pocket? Is Professor X sitting next to you? Who is we?
Uh, you can count me in on that “we”. Along with the black guests Maher had on his show last night.
Let me put it this way: I don’t know that Bill Maher is racist, but I don’t know that Bill Maher isn’t racist, either. What I do know, and I’ll go to the bank with this, is that Bill Maher isn’t the “furthest thing” from a racist. I don’t know how anybody can listen to any of his Islamophobic rants and say confidently to themselves, “There ain’t no way in hell that dude is racist!” Like, he might hate all religions, but he doesn’t go in on all religions with the same fervor that he goes in on Islam. That’s coming from someplace other than your run-of-the-mill, garden variety disdain for religion. There’s something else at the root of that kind of mad, and all I’m saying is, I wouldn’t bet my life that it ain’t racism.
Religion isn’t a race, it’s a choice. I’m not found of his Islamophobic bull shit either. But I’m not going to conflate racism with religious bigotry.
Nearly all anti-Muslim bigotry is actually anti-Arab bigotry in disguise. They don’t worry about the white skinned American looking Muslims. And the specific coverings are all cultural, not religious.
There’s a reason the opposite is usually the “West.”
Amen, brother! It’s not like Bill Maher ever made a movie that slams Christianity or Judaism, amirite?
I suspect this is probably true in most cases. But in this instance, we are specifically talking about Bill Maher. Given his history, I have no reason to believe his Islamophobia has anything to do with race.
I see no reason to believe Maher bears any negative feelings towards black people, but I do remember some of the kind of jokes that Ice Cube mentioned (he said this isn’t the first time Maher skirted the line of racism) - for example, I recall Maher wishing that Obama would “go gangsta” or “be blacker” when dealing with his Republican critics. Even if he doesn’t mean any harm by it, those are jokes that reiterate a stereotype (black people as dangerous or threatening) that has done a lot of harm.
Not the end of the world, and I still like his show, but Friday’s show brought back to me some of those jokes I found problematic.
I found Ice Cube’s words slightly depressing.
My take away is that, no matter how hard we strive for unity, there’s always going to be that line that divides us.
Or maybe I’m being naive. Maybe people don’t give a fuck about “unity”, and it’s all about equality.