The hell he didn’t.
Should the so-called public schools lead patriotic songs about America the Beautiful at kids who live in homeless shelters, or songs about doing the Hokey Pokey at kids in wheelchairs?
Christ, no.
Have you no humanity?
He meant Friedrich, not Selma. Please say you knew that…
Then provide a quote where he told someone to go BACK to Israel. Be sure the word “back” is in your quote, preferrably between the words “go” and “to Israel”.
Yeah baby.
Although Christmas in the USA is a **SECULAR **holiday. By order of the United States Constitution. Because, see, Congress shall make no law favoring an establishment of religion, so mandating a holiday for *religious *purposes would be… unconstitutional.
Who’d-a thunk it. (Not Bill Oh Really, that’s for sure.) :wally
Well, you know we have to make do with the humanity we have, not the humanity we wish we had or the humanity we think we might have in the future.
Last Thursday, I was asked by two close friends of mine (Thai immigrants and practicing Buddhists) to accompany their 5th-grade daughter to her public school’s Christmas concert (they had to work in their restaurant). Most of the songs were pretty secular, but they included ‘Silent Night’ and ‘Angels We Have Heard On High’.
The reason I’m writing this is because you are the third person I’ve encountered in as many days to assert blithely some form of “The schools can’t even sing religious Christmas carols anymore, dammit!”.
In fact, I’m bringing the concert program to work Monday to quiet one of them who insists that “You can’t even call it a Christmas concert!”
(FTR, I’m an atheist. I have no kids, but I wouldn’t mind their singing songs in school that mention Jesus. He’s an important historical figure, and I don’t consider religous studies to constitute proseletizing).
But people who make false overreaching statements about infringements on Christians’ freedoms, are doing more harm than good in the long run.
I have an entirely reasonable suggestion, which is to say, I offer an utterly radical idea with little or no chance of acceptance. I say we, of the left, shrug it off.
Let 'em. In instances like this, we unite the Troglodyte Right in ways they wouldn’t be united if it weren’t for us. The Christmas holiday and the predominance of Christianity are a fact, a fact that isn’t going to change anytime soon, regardless. And yet, somehow, we manage to raise little agnostics. And have done.
Yes, its a shame that Buddhist, atheist, Muslim kids, etc., have to put up with this crap. But we have bigger fish to fry. Whales, actually. Let’s be tolerant and accepting on this, shrug it off. Political judo. If we aren’t standing there resolutely trying to resist their shove, they will fall forward onto their collective face because they will over-reach. The moderate middle-muddle of American parents don’t want to get into a huge squabble about Santa and Jesus and Christmas parades. We will never, not ever, get them to side with us on these issues.
But when the Trog Right starts in on shoe-horning Creationism into the curriculum, which is a fight worth having, we will have more of them on our side by dint of not having alienated them.
The matador defeats the bull by evasion, not confrontation. And we got a lotta bull to defeat.
Good advice, indeed.
I doubt it (that you’ll have more of them on your side, that is).
I think we quite rightly single out religion as something the state shouldn’t be involved with promoting or celebrating: leaving it to private citizens to do and organize on their own initiative.
But then again, that’s a measure to specially protect religion, which maybe IS unfair to everything else. If people don’t respect that protection, and see it as a burden, well, the end of that road is the government corrupting religion. That’s a lot more skin off the back of religious believers than it is off atheists, so hey: you guys know what’s best. I mean, the state does such a great job with taxation, why not get them in on the theology business too? I’m sure they’ll do a fine job.
If Europe is any indication, the best way to get rid of religion actually seems to let believers go nuts with this stuff.
I mean, nothing so well damages Christianity to be as allowing Christians to freely demonstrate that they lack any consideration for the beliefs or feelings of others. Jewish kids that had to endure the Lord’s Prayer in school by and large weren’t turned into Christians: it made them see Christians as something sour and base that they had to endure. If that’s what Christians want to be to people, no one can ultimately stop them. It’s their choice.
If modern Christians really want that to be their legacy and public persona, it really ultimately relfects on nobody but themselves.
That’s exactly what I’ve thought for years, which is exactly why I don’t want religion pushed on people. It just alienates them. As I’ve said several times on this thread, there is a case to be made about religious issues in school, and I sure don’t want schools shoving religion down kids’ throats. I also believe that being “left out” (i.e. being treated as if your feelings or beliefs don’t count) is a reasonable issue and one that should be addressed.
If the caller on O’Reilly had made those kinds of complaints, they wouldn’t have been a loon. However, they made statements that were over-the-top loony.
And just for the record, I have no interest in defending O’Reilly. He’s an arrogant blowhard and often a dickhead, and I’ll never forget the phone sex harassment thing. ::shudder:: I don’t really give a shit about him either way. But the fact is, just because he is a blowhard dickhead doesn’t mean that people who get offended by something he says are always right. You’ve got to prove that he was offensive or out of line by judging what actually happened. Even blowhard dickheads can have moments where they are not 100% wrong.
Right on. I hope that the people that are responding now are actually reading the whole transcript. If someone can’t see that it is loony, then well, you know what that means.
At last — comprehension of the problem from someone on the left. With notable exceptions like yourself, you people are your own worst enemies.
Where were you recently when I was arguing that the so-called “public schools” are in fact government schools? Just so you know, you won’t automatically get cooties or something by agreeing with me now and then.
it’s such a hoot to see an atheist like DtC claim that giving a candy cane is “proseltyzing”.
Didn’t we just have a thread in IMHO where loads of atheists/agnostics were saying that Christmas is not automatically a religious holiday…that lots of them participate in some of the Christmas traditions (like giving candy canes…exchanging presents)?
Let me get this straight…Joe Atheist gives his kid a candy cane…NOT proseltyzing.
10 yeard old Susie Jones gives her classmate a candy cane…proseltyzing.
Um, yeah. :smack:
Depends on the specificity of terminology: I generally understand government to be a sub-section of public, given that government exists at the expense of the public. Government schools are funded by the public at large under the republican authority ostensibly granted by the public under our constitution.
What is not and cannot be taken by the government I generally refer to as civil society.
Point taken. But then, I only read threads sporadically.
Jew here. I think the caller was a loon.
Exactly. Abe Foxman makes it his mission to cultivate the bullshit notion collective victimhood and oppression. The man has no shame and he will jump at anything that furthers his goals.
I’m a strong supporter of the separation of church and state and I don’t think that any religious holiday should be observed by a public institution. But this guy has a problem with proselytization by private Christian groups and, well, the thing is, every religion needs to indoctrinate outsiders, otherwise its numbers would begin to wane. Sure, it can be annoying to brush off the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it’s not as if they’re violating your rights. That guy needs to get the fuck over himself.
Hell, I get off to my Hayek poster every night. Right after I finish making my Rand and Mises dolls kiss. Over an issue of the Objectivist Newsletter.
Not all religions are evangelical. Judaism isn’t.