Because I kind of sparked a tangent in the thread on Christmas holidays for government employees, I figured I’d open a new thread on the subject. Below is the appropriate portion of the first message I posted relating to it. Then I’ll go back and grab some more quotes from other folks who talked about it.
I wanted to relay a story to you about growing up non-Christian in a Christmas world. My 3 1/2-year-old son goes to a park district child-and-parent class. They focus on Christmas for the last two classes of this “semester,” with Santa coming the last day. The teachers are very nice and acknowledge other holidays, wishing the few Jewish kids a “Happy Hanukkah” and the like, and I’m sure they mean well, but like some of the people around here, they are Christians in a Christian world with a Christian mindset. They simply don’t understand how it is for a child who knows Santa will not be visiting his house and who does not celebrate Christmas. I have heard from several Jewish parents whose children have been upset because they felt left out. Then, last week, my wife and son went to the class. They came home early and I asked why. My wife informed me that my 3 1/2-year-old son wanted to leave because it was all Christmas and he felt out of place.
To anybody who says that Christmas is just a secular holiday, to anybody who says it’s no big deal, to the stupid judge mentioned above who thinks Santa is a great lark and everybody is better for having Christmas, I would have wanted them to see my child’s face when he told my wife that he wanted to go home from a place he normally loves to be at. And I would have had two words for them at that point (though out of earshot of my son) – “Fuck you.”
In that previous thread, I said, in response to PunditLisa:
I want my son to understand how many differences there are among people! My neighborhood, for example, is a perfect situation for this. Next door is an interracial couple. Across the street is a Sikh Muslim Indian married to a Catholic whose father is Jewish. Etc. I enjoy the fact that we have so much diversity around and my son is learning about how different people have different beliefs. What I don’t enjoy is having some of these people force their religious beliefs on him to make him feel uncomfortable when he should be enjoying himself. There is quite a big difference.
In another message, I wrote:
Incidentally, more on the topic of my 3 1/2-year-old son (and not directly related to this topic except as I’ve already noted). He also goes to a park district pre-school. A couple weeks ago, the teacher pulled my wife and the mother of a Muslim boy aside after class to tell them that the classes were doing a “holiday” program (read: Christmas) and they could either allow our sons to participate or have them sit down with the parents during the program (which is today). What were we, the parents, supposed to do? Tell our small children that they can’t sing songs with their friends? Would they understand such a thing or view it as punishment? To make matters worse, the projects these past couple weeks have all been Christmas-related. A wreath. A Christmas ornament. Santa’s hat. Etc.
Oh, but Christmas is for everyone!
Bullshit.
PunditLisa said:
Okay, Dave,if you were the pre-school teacher, how would you handle the situation? Pretend that Christmas didn’t exist? Spend one day studying each religion?
I responded:
I do have a better solution (contrary to your apparent assumption that I don’t). Either teach about all the different winter holidays (either all the “major” ones, like Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, and Ramadan, or about all the ones children in the class celebrate) or don’t teach them at all. I mean, Christian kids are going to do Christmas at home and/or church anyway, and that is where religion belongs – in the home and church.
Orangecakes added:
In my sons school,its all about xmas right now.They are practicing singing for the show,made an angel for the top of the tree,etc. I’d rather they work on adding,subtracting,etc!
Keeves noted:
I remember the “holiday” programs in school when I grew up, and I am totally opposed to it. The holidays can be mentioned, or even studied, in Social Studies class, but anytrhing beyond that is totally out of place in a public school, and I fully agree with your comments on that.
Thanks, Mullinator. Indeed, these folks are just being more open about their pushing of Christianity in school. One board member there is quoted as saying: “This is a Christian country and it is founded on Christian values with God in mind.” Ah, Georgia.
My only real question is how these folks can really be this stupid. I mean, their own attorney told 'em they would lose. They have to know they can’t win the inevitable ACLU lawsuit. So why bother? What does it accomplish, other than taking away school money to fight the suit rather than putting to good use in the school? (And watch when they blame the ACLU for suing 'em when they never should have done it to begin with.)
There must be 100 different ways to handle Christmas gracefully in our
schools.
Christmas is a part of the dominant culture in this country, you can take
Christmas out of the schools by legislation but how about the TV? the local
Walmart? the Sunday or daily newspaper cartoons? printed/decorated
sweatshirts?
The themed holidays are stressed more openly in the lower grades and these
grades are usually confined to k-6, k-3, k-4 schools - these are the ones
that concern non-Christians the most. When they get into the upper grades
the kids have a better sense of who they are, it is not such a problem.
How about a stated policy that each grade, every year, takes a different
aspect of the winter holidays? First grade is Santa, second grade is
African American, third grade is Christian, fourth grade is Jewish, and so
on? Doesn’t tolerance come with understanding?
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
I’m not concerned with any of those, though, as they don’t fall into the bounds of the First Amendment (well, they do, but in the reverse way – they fall into the “free speech” area). I can explain to my son why everybody else has decorations except us. I can avoid Christmas TV shows (since my son is only allowed to watch a limited amount of TV, he probably wouldn’t see them anyway). He understands that other people celebrate Christmas. But when a government-sponsored institution (his pre-school or parent/child class) makes him feel uncomfortable because they are pushing their holiday on him, that is where the line must be drawn.
True. I know a Jewish woman who, when her children were young, would not let them sing Christmas songs in the school program. Later, when they were in high school, they chose to join choir. Choir, of course, sang Christmas songs around this time of year. But she noted that they were doing it of their own accord and knew what it was they were doing. This, she said, made all the difference in the world.
Hmmm. I don’t particularly care for that one. I mean, first what happens to kids who transfer schools? They end up with Christmas one year and then, in a different school district, Christmas the next. Second, I don’t see a reason to dedicate that much time. Like Orangecakes said, they have better things to be doing. They can learn about all the holidays well enough to understand the differences without having to spend an inordinate amount of time on any of them. But teaching about what each religion believes is as far as it should go.
I was going to say that this tolerance can come from places other than the public school, but that is just too big a can of worms to open up. So instead, I’ll say this:
Yes, the school can teach these things, as long as the focus is kept on the goal of inter-cultural tolerance. That means keeping it in Social Studies class, or something comparable. The problem is when it crosses the line from learning about these things, to personally celebrating them. For example, there should not be any kind of holiday party, glee club presentation, or such.
It’s like running in an election when you know you’ll lose. People do it to raise public awareness of the issue, and/or so that next time the loss will be less total and maybe even a win.
Except when you run in an election, you’re doing it with your own money (or the money of people who voluntarily donated it). When you pull a stunt like this and you’re on a school board, you’re using the money that is supposed to go to educate the children, not promote your own pet religio-political causes.
FYI: I just talked to my wife about the pre-school “holiday” program. She said the kids all dressed in Santa hats and all the songs were Christmas/Santa related except a short version of Frosty the Snowman.
I will be calling the principal today and expressing my dismay at this situation, though I haven’t figured out exactly what to say yet.
If only " …kids all dressed in Santa hats and all the songs were Christmas/Santa related …" this would make “Little Christians” out of all the little hell raisers that go to school.
How great an effect does this really have on a child? Half the kids there were probably uncomfortable because their parents were or weren’t there, their hats were too loose, their clothes were too new/too old, no one would help them learn the songs or their parents made them practice too long…
I would think that in the course of raising a child you will have so many important issues that you will have to discuss with other parents, teachers, the principal - this is so minor. It’s a least said type thing.
Regardless of your religion or your school’s slant or your country’s religious inclination you job as a parent is to tell the kid - you looked great in that hat! I was so proud to see you stand straight and tall! Your singing just made me want to clap my hands! Let’s call Grampa and sing him that snowman song!
And if he’s uncomfortable in that situation, let him know you were, too, but it wasn’t that bad and didn’t last that long. Life is full of rotten stuff you/your kid might not like, show him a gracious way of dealing with it. Do him a lot more good than that talk with the principal.
And next year, you or your wife should be volunteers helping the next teacher with the Winter Program.
Jois, I don’t think it’s an either/or situation. I can support my son and talk to the principal. And, as I noted earlier, this program was just the culmination of a couple weeks of Christmas focus. I had said: “To make matters worse, the projects these past couple weeks have all been Christmas-related. A wreath. A Christmas ornament. Santa’s hat. Etc.” This is not a Christian school and there is simply no excuse for this type of thing.
The park district child-and-parent class would focus on Christmas for the last two classes of this “semester,” with Santa
coming the last day.
That you live in a world with a Christian mindset.
That they simply don’t understand how it is for a child who knows Santa will not be visiting his house and who does not celebrate Christmas.
There’s no doubt I’d have taken my kid out of those two classes! You knew and still let him go…
And there were several Jewish parents? Even if they were in the area, not also attending the park dept classes, I’d have called every one and asked about skipping those last two classes and having a get together at one of our own homes for parties, videos, or games.
Worst to worst, I’d have picked the kid up that third to the last class and told him he was done until after vacation.
Well, first, I didn’t know they’d be focussing so much on Christmas, or I’d have said something sooner. My wife did try to talk to the principal about the “holiday” program, but the principal was always busy when my wife inquired (I suspect this was true – not just trying to avoid her). The “several” Jewish parents I mentioned were ones who had kids go through at various times, not necessarily right now.
Maybe we should have pulled him out, but for two weeks? He’s upset as it is now that they are on break because he won’t get to go to school. The fact is that we shouldn’t have to do that.
Aide: “Principal Carruthers, I have a Mr. Bloomberg on the phone. He says he wants to talk about Christmas and the Constitution. He says he’s (whisper) an atheist.”
Carruthers: “Damn heathens. I keep forgetting. Is Bloomberg the ranting idiot that I can calm down by telling a lie, or is he the guy that knows all that stuff and makes me look like an idiot?”
Aide: “I think he’s the smart one sir. I forget the ranting guy’s name.”
Carruthers: “Well, shit. Tell him he just missed me and take a message. I’ll call him back in January.”
When you have the discussion with the principal, ask what the learning objectives for the various projects (wreath, ornament, Santa’s hat, song program, etc.) were?
If it was to teach the students about a specific religious event or idea, and in doing so, forced the students to participate in the celebration of that event, then you have every right as a parent to be offended and concerned.
If,however,the objective was to teach the students how to use scissors, glue, paper, and crayons to create a craft or artwork, or to teach them how to read music, memorize text, or make a presentation in front of an audience, then I think the teacher accomplished the objective.
Could the objectives have been met using different content, e.g., generic, non-Christmas related songs and art projects? Yes, definitely. But, IMHO, the content only has the importance that you give it. Teach your son that it’s not important that the hat he created is like Santa’s, but that he can use the same skill to create any kind of hat he wants.
Jois, what a wonderful solution you’ve found! Just take the kid out of the class! In fact, I think we could use your idea to bring Christian prayers back into the classroom. After all, if the parents know that:
(1) the schools are going to have a short prayer every morning at the beginning of class;
(2) they live in a world with a Christian mindset; and
(3) that school administrators simply don’t understand how it is for a child who is not Christian
then they can just make sure to bring their children to class late if they want to avoid the prayers! And if they bring their kids to school on time (knowing full well that prayers are going on), well, that’s their own fault. Maybe they can spend that morning time with the other heathens. . .
After reading your impassioned post I begin to understand what Jewish people face this time of year with their children and why Hanukkha has become the large holiday it has become in the last 25 years. Yes, anything that gives your child pain is something to be upset about. I think the solution is not easy. How would you not upset all the other kids by not celebrating the holiday? Is it fair to upset 50 kids so two won’t be upset?
I think that anyone who lives in this country has to deal with Christmas because it is a rreligious holiday that has been absorbed into American culture. The Christmas Season is the engine that drives retail, accounting for 60% of revenues, I’m told.
I’m sure you realize than many Christmas songs were written by Jews. I’m sure you also realize that the Christmas Classic" The NutCracker Suite" was written by a Jew.
I think the teacher handled a tough situation properly. I suspect nothing short of cancelling the Christmas holiday would appease some people. I’m sure that is not what you want.
My two words, OK, four, are : MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY HANUKKAH
Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]
