Religion in School: Drawing the line

Great Debates
1

Conservatives often exagerrate the restrictions placed on religious observance in public schools, saying for example that “children are prohibited from praying” (not true). Or, “children are prohibited from posting the Ten Commandments” (only teachers and/or principals can authorize posting things on the wall). To be sure, there is occasionally overzealous resrictions on personal religious expression in school (or the workplace) but the answer is not new legislation or bitter denunciations but clarification of current law. IMHO:

These thing should be permitted in public school:

  1. A “moment of silence” at some point in the school day.
  2. Students praying silently to themselves at moments of free time.
  3. Students reading the bible or other religious texts during free reading time.
  4. Students including religious themes in their creative writing or artwork so long as it was no specified in the assignment.
  5. The posting of the above on classroom walls so long as it is part of the whole classes’ work, most of which would presumably not be religious.
  6. Students wearing clothing or jewelry containing religious symbols or slogans.
  7. Students or teachers revealing their religious affiliation in the course of informal classroom discussions.
  8. Students meeting voluntarily at lunch or recess for prayer or bible study.
  9. Students using classrooms before or after class for religious meetings. (This does raise questions about allowing non-traditional groups, cults etc., the same priviledge).
  10. References to “Christmas”, “Easter”, “Hannukah”, “Kwanzaa”, etc.
  11. Christmas trees, Santa Claus, or other holiday symbols which do not refer directly to religious aspects of holidays.
  12. Discussion of religion’s role in history so long as all religions are given balanced treatment.

Now these are the tings which should not be permitted:

  1. Prayer of religious instruction conducted from the head of the classroom or over the public address system by anyone.
  2. The posting of the Ten Commandments or any other religious texts, slogans, or symbols on classroom wall by anyone (exept for point 5 above).
  3. Nativity scenes or holiday programs or carols which refer to Jesus or God, or any specifically religious theme.
  4. Using history as a pretext for discussion of a particular religion.

Comments?

2

Hmmm…still mulling it over, but an initial thought is that I might not be comfortable with a teacher being too vocal with their religious feelings. I think it might be too opressive for them to be forbidden to not wear religious symbols (i.e. a cross or Star of David) but I’m not sure of the rest. However, I see no reason why kids can’t express their religious beliefs in clothing, etc., seeing as they are mere peers of other students.

3

I’m not quite sure I understand point 5A. Could you explain it further?

#9–you already raised the big problem with this one–why would “non-traditional” religions not be included (you phrased it as if this would be a possibility) and who gets to decide if something is a “traditional” religion, a “non-traditional” religion or a cult? Also, would atheistic or agnostic groups be able to use after-school space?

#10–there are so many different “holidays” celebrated by so many different religions, is it possible to include them all? Of course, you can say that “all” of them don’t have to be included but then which ones do you leave out? That takes us back to question #9.

#12–I assume this means that students will be informed (in a positive light) about the different religions that were persecuted during the Inquisition and the Crusades? I mean, when I was in school we were taught that the Crusades were fought so that the Christians could “save” all the “godless”–not until later did I find out that meant “people with fully developed religious beliefs of their own which happened to differ from the Crusaders.”

I always try to do things in chronological order.

4

No non-traditional religions? see, that is just the problem, who decides whether a religion is traditional or non-traditional, good or bad, approved or verboten?

I sure as hell don’t want it to be the same idiots that insist the 10 commandments is “religous tolerance”, but any mention of witchcraft/ paganism in a book calls for immediate burning ( unspoken is BOTH the book & the author). Does the word “hypocrite” mean anything to them?

Teachers are a powerful force for molding young minds, and the 1st admendment says they are not to mold those minds into their “approved” religion(s).

Christmas & Easter can certainly be celebrated in a secular manner, ie Santa & the Easter Bunny. A study of comparative religions, in later years, would certainly be OK. In an Ethics class the 10 commandments could well be discussed, along w/ the codes of Hammurabi, etc.

5

evilbeth: I think what the OP refers to in #5A is a case that happened not too long ago. A boy, I think in kindergarten or first grade, drew a picture of Jesus for a class art assignment (they had to draw their favorite person, or something like that). The whole class was supposed to have their pictures displayed in the classroom, but the teacher refused, with the principal’s permission, to display this one child’s picture because of it’s religious theme. This is the same child who picked a Bible story to read when it was his turn to choose a story for the class. The story, although from the Bible, did not make any religious references (it was the story of the prodigal son), but the teacher would not read it in class.
I think in the above case, the rules were enforced to the letter, but not to the spirit of the rules.

I’m an atheist, but I think the OP has given some reasonable guidelines. The ones I don’t think would work are #7 (I think this could be abused…there is no real need for this) and #9 (for the reasons other people have listed above). I also don’t really see the point in a moment of silence (kids have plenty of time throughout the day to create their own moments of silence), but it wouldn’t bother me if schools did this.

6

1. A “moment of silence” at some point in the school day.
I would prefer that school time be used for instruction. I see no particular value in this moment of silence. Students who wish to observe their faith privately have ample opportunities to do so before classes, during breaks, or after classes.

2. Students praying silently to themselves at moments of free time.
Absolutely.

3. Students reading the bible or other religious texts during free reading time.
Absolutely.

4. Students including religious themes in their creative writing or artwork so long as it was no specified in the assignment.
Yes, so long as no school authority is influencing or implicitely rewarding such student choices.

5. The posting of the above on classroom walls so long as it is part of the whole classes’ work, most of which would presumably not be religious.
I assume you mean the posting of student drawn religious artwork in student display areas, etc. I am not certain I agree with this. It is quite possible for the content of an assignment to be acceptable for academic purposes but not for display. By displaying a piece, the school risks the implication that the administration agrees with the content of the piece. Think of a student sculpture which displays teenagers in a sexual context. The sculpture might be well executed and fitting for academic evaluation as a work of art, but that does not mean a school should place it in the courtyard.

6. Students wearing clothing or jewelry containing religious symbols or slogans.
Yes, so long as they are also allowed to wear clothing with racist slogans, glorification of violence, etc. Alternatively, a school dress code which clearly delineates an acceptable uniform (as opposed to attempting to exclude each potentially bothersome sartorial choice) is fine with me.

7. Students or teachers revealing their religious affiliation in the course of informal classroom discussions.
No. It is neither possible nor desirable for a teacher tp set aside their position of authority in discussions with students. Any affimation of faith (or lack of faith) by a teacher is inappropriate.

8. Students meeting voluntarily at lunch or recess for prayer or bible study.
Students should be allowed to gather for prayer or Bible study at any tie students are allowed to gather voluntarily for any other extracurricular activity.

9. Students using classrooms before or after class for religious meetings. (This does raise questions about allowing non-traditional groups, cults etc., the same priviledge).
Use of classrooms for extracuricular activities should not be infuenced in any way by the religious affiliation, if any, of the group in question.

10. References to “Christmas”, “Easter”, “Hannukah”, “Kwanzaa”, etc.
References? As in acknowledging that the holidays exist? Sure.

11. Christmas trees, Santa Claus, or other holiday symbols which do not refer directly to religious aspects of holidays.
No. The symbols you mention do, in fact, have religious associations. More to the point, what possible purpose can it serve to introduce such symbols into a school curriculum?

12. Discussion of religion’s role in history so long as all religions are given balanced treatment.
I would replace “so long as all religions are given balanced treatment” with “so long no representation is made that any religion is true, false, or carries any innate moral value.” In other words, “just the facts, ma’am.”

I agree with your list of prohibitions. (You probably guessed that already. ;))

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

7

Okay, good. See how reasonable we are all being? Any additions to my list? Reading your responses raises a few points I hadn’t considered. C3, I hadn’t heard of that incident but that’s exactly what I had in mind. The school was being overzealous. A student’s religious expression can be displayed so long as it is “buried” amidst the other students’ work. Reading aloud, even in turn, might be a bit different. The prodigal son story is okay, but what if the Bible story the kid wanted to read was more explicitly religious? Tough to draw the line there. Also, what if a teacher wanted to wear a t-shirt with a slogan on it, such as “Jesus is your Lord whether you like it or not”. I may have to say no, but a teacher should still be able to wear a cross around his or her neck.

A few other responses:

There may not be any purpose to a moment of silence, but it couldn’t be considered unconstitutional so long as we guard against creeping religiosity.

Racist or sexually explicit expression are always inappropriate.

Just because certain holiday symbols have become associated with a certain religion does not mean they are religious in and of themselves. People have been celebrating “christmas” since before Jesus was even born. What sort of message does decorating a fir tree say about God? When was the last time you heard Santa Claus mention Jesus? (other than on South Park) It’s too bad we don’t have a different name for it, (“easter” is an old pagan term for the goddess of spring) but I don’t believe it should be unconstitutional for a teacher to say “merry christmas”.

Finally, touching in religion in history class is frought with difficulty. There will always be people with an agenda (or fearing an agenda) trying to influence the curriculum. This issue needs to be carefully worked out.

8

Well…here goes…time to stop “lurking” and start “posting”…here it comes, my first post with my first question…

What exactly is the purpose of a “moment of silence”?

Hardly worth the wait was it? Nonetheless, I am curious…

Statistically speaking…all animals are insects

9

This links to the text of a 1995 memo by President Clinton outlining what I believe are the current federal guidelines on religious expression in schools. This links to a faq prepared by the ADL on religious issues in public schools. Some of the questions (notably vouchers) are somewhat speculative as there has been no final determination by the USSC, it looks like a pretty good primer on the subject, including case names in many instances.

10

I’ll just quickly respond to 2 of sqweels’ ideas:

#1) Moment of silence–this grants those who use silence a chance to pray. The same is not granted to those who can’t or won’t pray silently. Do the snake handlers get a moment to handle vipers? Do Orthodox Jews get to davaan? Do Dionysians get to do a big circle dance while drinking wine? Back when I practiced Christianity, I believed that public praying is offensive–can I loudly go “blergh jkim i love bjOrn aslkdjflk” during everyone else’s moment of silence?

#9) If my Dionysian club can’t meet, why should your Episcopalin society get to?

#12) “All” religions don’t have an equal role in shaping history.

Most of the other things people have responded to (e.g. a Christmas tree IS a religious symbol, etc.).

Bucky

11

I am afraid you are falling prey to a very common religious bias, sqweels.

Racist attitudes have very often been defended/justified as a part of reigious doctrine.

Several religions view sexuality as a sacrament and consider it a method of worship.

You want to allow religious expressions that are comfortable for you but prohibit those that you feel are incorrect. This is using the power of the state to promote some religions above others. That is a violation of the first ammendment.

The fact that holidays were observed by other religions before Christianity does not mean they lack religious significance. It means they have significance to more than one religion. If I found a new religion which celebrates 12-25 as the day of my sainted Granny’s birth, that does not mean Christmas celebrations are now suddenly non-religious. The fact that another religion observed that day as a holiday first also does not make “Granny-day” non-religious.

I personally have no problems with students wearing religious symbols of any kind: crosses, stars of David, pentacles, phallic wands, fertility goddesses, whatever – as long as there are no restrictions whatsoever placed upon the individual choice. I have no problems with teachers wearing anything that can be and is tucked inside a shirt/blouse/jacket.

I do not believe a moment of silence is unconstitutional. I believe it is a complete misallocation of school time. I also believe that thoe who argue for its presence view it as a means to “sneak” prayer into organized school time. You may disagree, but if so please provide me one benefit that this moment will bring other than the chance for some students to pray silently and feel like that behavior is sanctioned by the school.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

12

I certainly don’t think that there ought to be a moment of silence, screw 'em. I would like nothing more than to have some popcorn while I watch you try to convince some school board or legislature to allow racist or smutty imagery during school. But every year there are secular folk festivals. On Halloween you dress up and trick-or-treat. On Christmas you exchange presents around a tree. On the forth of July you have fireworks. On your birthday you have a cake with candles. There is a seperartion between the religious and secular acpects of a festival. You have to specify what unnacceptable message is being sent, eh? People should let their hair down and join the party.

13

religion should only be mentioned or teached on a philosophical level in schools. under no circumstances should religion be practiced or displayed in schools. if students or teachers must practice their religion during school time they should do so in private.

reasons are easy to explain, but perhaps difficult to accept. please note that i do agree with many of the things the OP said, but difficulty in practice and “reading the line” are too much to enforce.
reason would be; not displaying religious matter or only discussing it on a philosophical level (as in history class or in sociology…) is the only “correct” way to ensure no one is mistreated.

fact is that in every school, one religion is most common among students. and as religion is a “group thing”, a display of religion among students will create unneccessary and unwanted display of faith. it will also raise the question of “when to draw the line?”. that is; when are kids mature enough to form and express their own ideas without being judgemental towards those who are different.

hiding religion in school is not what i am talking about, im just saying that instead of “free display of faith”, the school should teach students the philosophical aspects of religion from an objective point of view(i think thats a correct way to word it).

taking me for an example…i learned christianity in school, got confirmed, and then learned about the other major religions in the world. i thought that was a wrong way of teaching me about religion. i would have wanted to know about the “other” religions before i was confirmed. if only to know that there are more ways of seeing the world than one.

i blamed both school and church for this unfortunate course of events, and therefore consider me a beliver(eh…) with personal opinions about my faith.

?? its: i luf … :wink: - who the . is bucky?

bj0rn - you are god, i am god, he is god, she is god, it is god and we are god…but only i am god.

14

Birthdays and Independence Day have noreligious overtones and have never been celebrated as religious holy days. Halloween and Christmas are and have been for millenia very closely associated with specific religious beliefs. There is no way to observe those festivals in a school setting without treading on the line between church and state. More to the point, it serves no legitimate educational purpose to celebrate these occassions. None of these festivals, moments of silence, etc. are defensible solely in the context of education. Why do you want them in the schools?

As to racist or sexually graphic symbols, if you don’t want Jack to wear his bull-phallus then Jill can’t wear her Latin Cross. If you pick and choose which religious symbols will be acceptable to a school administration you are explicitely supporting some religions over others. The fact that so many school boards would be willing to do so is exactly why it is necessary to strictly interpret and enforce the first ammendment.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

15

I’d like to raise a point here. I’ve thought of it and the past in Debates like this and not brought it up, because I didn’t want to insult anyone. But here it is:

When did you people go to high school?

I’ve noticed a tendency in both left and righ wing posters on this board to carry a battle from their high school days in the 21st century.

For instance, my World Civ class last year was taught by a fundamentalist-- in a small Midwestern town. But he never hesitated to criticize mistakes the Christian Church has made in history. I can’t imagine the situation evilbeth describe happening in any school today. (OK, maybe a religious school)

As for the OP:

  1. A “moment of silence” at some point in the school day.

This * could* be a good thing, if it was only at appropriate occaisions (ie the death of a classmate) and if it was specifically nonreligious. (Now, students, we will observe a moment of silence to reflect on our loss and remember our friend Billy.)

  1. Students praying silently to themselves at moments of free time.

You can’t really stop this from happening, can you?

  1. Students reading the bible or other religious texts during free reading time.

I don’t think the school has a right to prohibit you from reading anything in your free time, that is legal for you to possess.

  1. Students including religious themes in their creative writing or artwork so long as it was no(sic) specified in the assignment.

I believe what is or is not appropriate content is the choice of the teacher (subject of course to review by her/his superiors.)

  1. The posting of the above on classroom walls so long as it is part of the whole classes’ work, most of which would presumably not be religious.

If everyone else’s pictures are posted, then yes. Otherwise, the teacher needs to show some judgement. It would proabbly be unfair to even appear to show bias. Unfair to a student whose religiously themed work deserves display, but you can’t have it all.

  1. Students wearing clothing or jewelry containing religious symbols or slogans.

Students should be allowed to wear what they want, for the most part, on an honor system basis. If someone abuses this by wearing something explicitly sexual, racist or violent, then uniforms for all.

  1. Students or teachers revealing their religious affiliation in the course of informal classroom discussions.

  2. Students meeting voluntarily at lunch or recess for prayer or bible study.

  3. Students using classrooms before or after class for religious meetings. (This does raise questions about allowing non-traditional groups, cults etc., the same priviledge).

AT my current school, if students have organized a club and been sponsered by a faculty member, they are given access to facilities they need. Unilaterally. The Bible Study gets the conference room Wednesday, my Jews for Cthulu club gets it Saturday nights.

  1. References to “Christmas”, “Easter”, “Hannukah”, “Kwanzaa”, etc.

The acknowledgement of their existence is tolerable.

  1. Christmas trees, Santa Claus, or other holiday symbols which do not refer directly to religious aspects of holidays.

As decorations? On a student led basis. And if a student is not allowed to celebrate his faith (by peer pressure, obscenity laws, etc.) then no one gets to. The honor system again.

  1. Discussion of religion’s role in history so long as all religions are given balanced treatment.

You ** can’t ** discuss history without bringing in religious themes. Even quoting Lincoln’s belief that the Civil War was a punishment from God on slavery would be tolerable, IMHO. A teacher claiming this, OTOH, should be tossed.

From the no-no list:
holiday programs or carols which refer to Jesus or God, or any specifically religious theme.

Holiday programs that do not refer to Jesus or God are subtle attempts to slip past us the fact that “Christ” is right there in Christmas. A holiday program shouldn’t hit the stage unless it references Ramadan, Hanukkah, Christmas, the Winter Solstice, Kwanzaa and anything any other student’s belief system indicates happens in December or January. It is the burden of the student to bring it up, but if he is rejected, the whole program goes out the window.

Jeez, that was long. I’m usually not a GDer, but since I’m currently in high school, I feel like I can contribute.

–John
Still pissed about the “Holiday Tree” in the lobby.

'Twis brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gymble in the wabe.
Mimsy were the borogroves,
And the momeraths outgrabe.

16

All that, and I missed 7.

I believe that in elementary school, teachers shouldn’t bring up religious affiliation, of any one.

By junior high/high school, students should be mature enough to know that their teacher believes in the Invisible Pink Unicorn without blowing all their milk money on the Fragment of the Sacred Horn.

–John

17

Wow, 15 responses to this topic, and David B still hasn’t shown up!

18

I went to junior high and high school in the early and mid 1980s. I attended Christmas celebrations in which the gym teacher lectured students against ever saying “Xmas” because it’s wrong to leave Christ out of Christmas. I attended classes in which the Spanish teacher played games and held contests based on the names of Bible characters. I endured a personal lecture from my track coach after he found out I was an atheist.

Don’t ever buy the argument that teachers will not abuse their position and try to inflict their beliefs on students.

Sorry, I must have missed something. What did evilbeth say?

I think there is a reasonable parallel to be drawn between mentioning religion in a historical context and including music with a religious theme. A lot of great music over the centuries has been inspired by religion, as have many great paintings. It would be a mistake to automatically exclude that music from a school event devoted to music.

On the whole, sqweel’s list is fair – and, I think, basically what the law and the Constitution permit already.

Up, up and away!

19

evilbeth said:

As for your experience in high school… (Oh, dear posters, forgive me for reminding you of this) ** The mid to late eighties were ten to fifteen years ago. **

The point of the first part of my post was that for a lot of the posters talking about what’s wrong in schools, school was more than a decade ago. A lot changes in that time.

As I could not with evilbeth’s story happening today, neither could I see what you (Clark K) described happening at a contemporary high school, unless it was a religiously affiliated school.

On the musical issue: a school band recital should be allowed to play religously-themed classical music, for instance. However, a school program focused on a religious holiday is unacceptable. (Christmas pageant)

–John

'Twis brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gymble in the wabe.
Mimsy were the borogroves,
And the momeraths outgrabe.

20

I agree with pretty much everything that Yue John Han has said - I graduated high school in 1996. Oddly enough, the only time I have felt religiously pressured was when I was in college. My Hebrew teacher had us play Bible Jeopardy, which made me rather upset (I went to a public state university). Students who are in her class now say that she spends more time teaching Torah than Hebrew, or brings Torah study into Hebrew lessons all the time. Not only is this really uncool, but some of the students aren’t Jewish and didn’t go to Hebrew school and are at a distinct disadvantage in these lessons.

Also, I disagree with whoever said that schoolchildren should not be allowed to wear religious jewelry/clothing. I’m not offended when I see people wearing a cross or a shahaada pendant.