Religious expression in public schools

Great Debates
1

Time to break out of the “Another dumb school board decision” thread and start anew.

To what extent should students in public (government funded/subsidised) schools be able to express their religion?

A public school is a government entity. Those employed by a public school system are government employees. As such they are bound by the Constitution to make no rules which would respect the establishment of religion. I think that is pretty clear.

The question, though, does not relate to employees, but to students. Here are some questions to get this started, but feel free to diverge. Assume that these do not violate tangential rules, like disrupting class.

  1. Students certainly have the right to pray silently, but do they have the right to voice those thoughts aloud? If not, why? If yes, under what curcumstances?

  2. Can a student, or group of students, wear clothing or carry items which clearly state their religious beliefs? If so, where do you draw the line? 10 Commandment t-shirts? The Koran on a book bag? Satanic bible jeans? WWJD bracelets?

  3. Can a student conspicuously wear a religious icon (crucifix, Star of David, pentagram, star and crescent) on a necklace?

  4. Can a student stand in the commons between classes and preach?

  5. If any of the above is allowed, at what point, if any, do school authorities become complicit and violate the “establishment of religion” clause?

Pencils ready…you may begin.

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. – E. Grebenik

2

Dr J, I think a student can voluntarily do any of the things you’ve listed so long as it doesn’t interfere with the orderly operation of the school. Restrictions on the practice of religion which do interfere with the school’s operations should be crafted and enforced evenly as to all religions.

3
  1. Students certainly have the right to pray silently, but do they have the right to voice those thoughts aloud? If not, why? If yes, under what curcumstances?

I wasn’t aware that students were forbidden to pray aloud. Certainly wasn’t the case 15 years ago, when I was in HS.
2. Can a student, or group of students, wear clothing or carry items which clearly state their religious beliefs? If so, where do you draw the line? 10 Commandment t-shirts? The Koran on a book bag? Satanic bible jeans? WWJD bracelets?

Sure, why not? And understand that if it is allowed, it should be allowed for everyone. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, and even those kids who seek to do nothing more than piss off and offend by claiming to be Satanists.
3. Can a student conspicuously wear a religious icon (crucifix, Star of David, pentagram, star and crescent) on a necklace?

Again, why not? With the caveat offered above.
4. Can a student stand in the commons between classes and preach?

To whom? Those of a like mind? If so, sure, have at. To those who feel differently? That comes uncomfortably close to being disruptive.
5. If any of the above is allowed, at what point, if any, do school authorities become complicit and violate the “establishment of religion” clause?

Once they start openly advocating any one religion over another.

Waste
Flick Lives!

4

I think the dividing line has to be at the point where the religious expression becomes disruptive, or overtly threatening to others.
For instance, praying aloud in the halls between classes would probably be fine, since it’s always pretty loud then anyway. But praying aloud during an exam, when people are trying to concentrate, is disruptive.

For another example, a certain religious sect might teach that homosexuals are evil and must be killed or harmed. Even if a student belongs to such a sect, he should not be allowed to wear a t-shirt saying “All Fags Must Die”, because such a message is blatantly threatening to others. (A bracelet or pendant with the same message would be in a grayer area, since it’s not immediately visible, hence not obviously provocative.)

I’m not a warlock. I’m a witch with a Y chromosome.

5

On the one hand, I really, really, do want to agree with this. Ok… I do agree with it.

But where is the line drawn? Can Satanists wear jackets with depictions of Satan on it? Can an atheist wear a t-shirt proclaiming that there is no God?

I don’t pretend to know the answers to these things.

6

A Satanist should be allowed to wear a shirt with a picture of a grinning, happy demon, or whatever. Unless it has a slogan like “Satan says to murder your parents” or something like that, in which case it should not be permitted.

See, if a person wants to express something about himself, that’s allowed; it doesn’t matter whether he’s saying “I’m a Christian” or “I’m an atheist” or “Hey look at me, I’m evil, aren’t I cool”. But administrators have to start placing limits when one person’s faith impacts other people.

I’m not a warlock. I’m a witch with a Y chromosome.

7

Nor do I, Keeves. As I said in the other thread, religious expression is one reason of many that I send my kids to private school.

Frank - Who defines “orderly operation”? Does orderly operation of the school include not offending other students?

GLWasteful - You seem to have answered this debate for yourself, and that’s a good thing. I wish I could do that for myself. I will nitpick one thing, though. :wink: 1. I didn’t ask whether praying aloud in school (or at a school sponsored event) was forbidden. I was acknowledging that it is controversial and asking whether and under what circumstances it should be allowed.

Aura - What about a t-shirt that says “God Hates Fags”? It’s not overtly threatening, but it is offensive - even to me and I’m not gay. I wouldn’t want my child to attend a school where it was allowed.

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. – E. Grebenik

8

Yes, a public school is a government agency, and thus, under the provision of the 1st Amendment, cannot make any ruling about the establishment of religion. However, as I have mentioned before, a public school also must abide by the second part of that clause, which means that they cannot prohibit the free exercise of a student’s religion, either. This means if the student wants to wear a cross, or a Star of David, or a pentagram, or a Hindu wheel of life, or a star and crescent, or whatever, or carry a Bible or Koran, or wear T-shirts advertising Simon Peter’s Big Catch Fishing Charters and Boat Rentals, the school (much as they may be chagrined by such activity) cannot do a damn thing about it. Where do you draw the line? Simple. When such expression becomes offensive of any other group, it should be prohibited; and this does NOT include catering to people who say “I am offended by the mere sight of a cross”, or some such other baloney. Use a dose of common sense. There are all sorts of people out there that we do not agree with, but nevertheless we must interact with and live with on a daily basis. Having to do just that in a public school is really good training for the day when the student leaves the school for the real world where they will have to deal with this very issue. So to put it in a nutshell, as far as a student’s religious expression in a public school goes, to borrow a phrase from our Wiccan friends, “An it harm no one, do what thou wilt”.

9

One small nitpick before I answer: a pentagram is any five-sided object; a pentacle is a five pointed star. As a Wiccan, I occasionally wear a pentacle.

Yes, all students have the right to pray silently. How would you stop them? Under certain circumstances, all students have the right to pray outloud. They shouldn’t disrupt classes or incite riots, but I think it’s more than allowable that they gather before, between, and after classes and pray outloud. They just have to remember that every student gets to do so in their own way.

Yes and yes. Again, I draw the line at intentionally causing a disruption or inciting a riot. If someone wants to wear a t-shirt quoting Leviticus (“suffer not a witch to live”), I may find that repugnant, but I will support their right to wear such a shirt. But they don’t get to threaten or try to harm me. Speech is one thing, action is another.

They can tattoo it on their forehead for all I care. It’s their bodies, their clothing, their business. I may not agree with their sentiments, but tolerating them guarantees me the right to wear whatever I chose to. Or it should.

Yes, so long as they are not blocking traffic or endangering others. For simplicities sake, I’d suggest that the school designate a corner, where all haranguers can gather and harangue to their heart’s content. That way, those who wish to avoid it can, and those who want to seek it out know where to go.

When they show preference for or discriminate against any faith.

Because I am a member of a religion that is often misunderstood (to put it mildly), I think about these topics a lot. All I ask, guys, is that if you want it for yourself, be willing to grant it to me. If you don’t think I should be doing it, you better make sure that you won’t. It’s not a perfect standard, but it’s a good place to start.

“I’m surprised that you’ve never been told before, that you’re lovely, that you’re perfect, and that somebody wants you.” - Semisonic, f.n.p

10

Dr J: A thousand pardons, I was mis-reading what you had posted.

To answer, though: As long as they aren’t creating a disturbance, then whenever they so desire. Again, a disturbance isn’t some little pisher saying, “Christians offend me, so make them stop!” But it also holds for those who want to worship any other deity. So I’ll brook no argument from Christian kids whining about Wiccans or Satanists. In my experience, most of the kids out there who are claiming to be Satanists are only doing it for the attention, anyway.

Waste
Flick Lives!