Religion in School: Drawing the line

And what, pray tell (pun intended), has changed so dramatically in 15 years? We’re not comparing 1955 with 1970, when the nation’s attitudes and civil rights laws changed dramatically.

In fact, just recently schools in the same area where I grew up (southern Illinois) have been in a rather heated battle over posting the 10 Commandments. The school board, school authorities and community generally support the idea. Only the threat of an ACLU lawsuit has stopped them. And, in response, local lawmakers are pushing state legislation barring any interference with the posting of “historical” documents.

I think more of this goes on, especially in rural areas, than you might think.


Up, up and away!

I’m going to try this again, and it’s late so, I hope I’m not being nasty. I feel frustrated, because all the points I’m reiterating here I’ve said before, and insulted, for reasons explained at the end.

a) **Until this year, I went to a rural high school. **In Indiana, specifically. The town (Elkhart) is not particularly rural itself, but the school is on the outskirts and population is mostly farm boys and girls.

b) I have never had anything like what you and evilbeth described happen to me. Nor has it happened to any of my friends at this school. (The school I currently attend is an honors high school that draws its students from all over the state, including small towns. By small towns I mean for example, Gas City, population 1,000.)

c)You do not go to high school. In a void of information, it could be possible that things have not changed. If we had no source of information about the inner workings of high schools, your guess as to the amount of change taking place would be as good as anyone’s. But I am in high school, and I am telling you, things have changed.

Why do I feel insulted by our disagreement?

I say high schools are no longer like you describe. You insist that they are. So you apparently think that I am lying, either about being a student or about seeing bigotry, or that I am stupid, and don’t notice the bigotry. So either way, I feel insulted by this.

–John


'Twis brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Yue Han -

Just a hunch, but two high schools in Indiana probably do not represent what is happening in all high schools right now. And if any of the things that evilbeth or Clark mentioned happened in even one school, it would be unacceptable.

sigh

I am not talking about just 2 high schools in Indiana. As I said, this school draws students from all over the state, so we’re talking about a fairly represntational sample of the state of Indiana, which is a very conservative state. And even though we’ve discussed this very topic in many classes, I have never met anyone whose experiences were as severe as those evilbeth and Clark K did in the past.

Does religion still impinge too much on school? Sure! I am for abandoning all Christmas pageants in secular schools. THere have been things, even here at a very liberal school, that are out of line. But I think things have changed for the better.

A lot of people who went to high school the same time as evilbeth and Clark K are now teachers, administrators and ACLU lawyers. That’s what changed-- people who suffered under religious totalitarianism in school are now in the position to change things.

–John

I attended Santa Monica High, a public high school in California, from fall 1980 through spring 1983.

Aside from our chorus singing a good deal of sacred music (most of it in foreign languages), there was nothing religious-themed going on at that high school. We did not have a designated prayer time, or even a moment of silence. We were not taught that the Crusades were fought by valiant Christians trying to save the godless. The two openly religious teachers I had kept their religious opinions to themselves during classtime.

The only in-class religious-themed material was Milton’s Paradise Lost in my 12th-grade English class, and I don’t know whether that was required reading schoolwide or just that English teacher’s choice.

I don’t think you need to take things quite so personally, John. We’re both doing the same thing: relating our experiences and pondering how they apply to the world at large. I’m not “insisting” on anything.

I gladly acknowledge my experience was probably the exception 15 years ago and would be even more remarkable now. I did not offer the anecdote to suggest that everyone, everywhere would encounter the same thing.

Likewise, I think that you would have to acknowledge that NOT encountering such an experience in your own life does not mean it never happens. Being a high school student now does not make you omniscient about activities at all schools.

The point _ and I think we both agree on this _ is that teachers can abuse their authority and try to force their beliefs on impressionable students. This very real possibility is what makes it so important to closely monitor any mixing of religion and public schools.

No hard feelings, I hope.


Up, up and away!

Sure, no hard feelings.

–John


'Twis brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

It’s a tough call. A friend of mine is an elementary school music teacher, and decidedly liberal, but is decidedly against being unable to perform religious-themed music at school, particularly at Christmas. Their “winter program,” to him, is a watered-down mish-mosh of a musical program, and he dreads doing it every year (and this from a guy who is one of the most creative and talented people I know). On the plus side, he’s started producing small playlets based on Orff teaching practices, sometimes written by the students themselves, which I think works pretty darn well.

And hey, what about Jehovah’s Witnesses (I think)? Aren’t they not allowed to celebrate anything? How the heck do you address their needs in December?

Esprix


Ask the Gay Guy!

Generally speaking, I’m in favor of maintaining a fairly strong separation between public schools and religion. As a Jew who was raised a Methodist in rural areas of the South, I think I’m particularly sensitive to the ways in which people try to impose their own beliefs and practices on others, sometimes thoughtlessly and sometimes with the most cunning deliberation. I don’t believe, however, that conducting schools as if there were no such things as religions nor any people who practice them is either possible or wise, for a number of reasons.

Too much of our history and culture has been shaped by religion to pretend it doesn’t exist. To suggest, as has been done in this thread, that school performing arts groups avoid any work that mentions Jesus or God strikes me as absurd, eliminating as it does much of the canon of western music and most of European drama before this century. I do not believe that hearing classmates perform a Bach chorale would subject my kids to inordinate pressure to adopt the religion of its composer. Nor do I think that studying Paradise Lost, the poems of T.S. Elot or Gerard Manley Hopkins, or the sermons of Jonathan Edwards, qua literature, would have a deleterious effect on them. Indeed, I think they would be the poorer for missing them. Likewise for the visual arts.

By the same token, I would no more suggest that students, faculty, and staff should avoid any visible signs of their faith (or lack thereof) than I would suggest that the Hasidim should change their dress and doff their hats when I walk through their neighborhoods, on the grounds that I don’t share their practice and it marks them as belonging to a particular religious group. Apparel is in some cases dictated by religious law, custom, and practice; in such cases, to be required to avoid any obvious display of belief would amount to banishment from the public school system. I, for one, would hate for my children to be denied the benefit of instruction by an otherwise brilliant teacher who felt obligated to wear a kippah or a cross pendant or any other religious symbol, and who was therefore precluded from teaching in public schools.

If you’re unable to accede to this line of argument, consider the consequences if you deny it. If anything that any religion anywhere considers a religious symbol is to be banned, it would be quite easy to end public education simply by setting up a religion that worships books as gods, with school buildings as temples, and teachers as priests.

I expect to instruct my children in our faith and its practices, and I expect that as members of a religious minority they will come in to contact at every turn with people who do not share them, and who in some cases are positively inimical to them. If my efforts are of so little value that encountering someone wearing a cross pendant threatens them, then I will have failed horribly – equally so if they are unequipped to deal with the hostile or the zealously proselytizing. I would hope that they grow up to acknowledge that there is a vast range of religious feeling among the people they encounter, to respect the differences, and to respond to their own religion with conviction and pride while avoiding condescension and contention toward others.

We must, as a society more multi-grained than any the world has ever known, re-learn the meaning of tolerance. We must train ourselves to find offense in the actions of others only when they admit of no other explanation, instead of seeking out opportunities to be affronted. We must learn that the wearing of a religious symbol, performance or study of work with religious themes, or mere mention of a religious affiliation on the part of a school employee or student, does not constitute an attempt to impose a certain set of beliefs on us.

I will be the first to stand up against outright proselytizing, intimidation, and bigotry on the part of either students or teachers at a publicly funded institution of learning. But I also oppose the notion that to benefit from such institutions one must divest oneself of any publicly discernable religious practice.



“Ain’t no man can avoid being born average, but there ain’t no man got to be common.” –Satchel Paige

I’m really banging my head against the wall with this holiday thing, but I’m convinced that there can be both secular and religious aspects to a holiday. So what if a particular holiday symbol or activity is “associated” with a religion? Everything in the entire world is associated with everything else. The question is, what religious message does a given symbol send? A nativity scene says that the birth of Jesus was a miraculous event. So what message does a Christmas tree send? Basically just, “hey, it’s the season”.

I could suggest that non-christians pretend that the holiday season has nothing to do with Jesus, but the fact is that Chritians have just been pretneding that it does. The winter solstice happens in late December regardless of what religion you are. Nothing wrong with marking the occasion with a bit of a folk festival. It used to fall on Dec. 25. People brightened up the longest nights of the year with decorated fir trees, wreaths, outdoor lights, family feasts, gift giving, etc. No Jesus in the picture so far. The early Christians decided to observe Jesus’ birth at that time for cover. Once Christianity began to dominate Western culture, the distiction was forgotten. But now that we must remove all religious expression from government-sanctioned venues, we can simply seperate them back out again. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

With Halloween the process is more or less complete. What started out a a pagan festival to honor the dead was co-opted by the Church as an occasion to honor “all saints”. But we all grew up with Halloween not caring one bit about any past religious significance. It’s all about the fun of dressing up in costume, putting up spooky decorations, and trick-or-treating for candy, and so it shall remain.

Back to Christmas, it is bitterly ironic that a season dedicated to good cheer, togetherness, peace on earth, etc. should be the source of such divisiveness. Celebrate the spirit of the holiday season by prohibiting your kids from participating and making them miserable. Even in a diverse society, there can still be such a thing as a mainstream culture, and holidays can be part of that. Hard-core Christians have been complaining that we’re taking the Christ out of Christmas. Let’s use that as proof that the holiday, as celebrated in public, has indeed been securlarized.
There’s still a problem with the name. We can go back to calling it “Yule”, stick with the generic “holiday”. Or we can acknowledge that “Christmas” has taken on a new meaning, as words often do. We can incorporate elements of Hannukah and Kwanzaa into the overall public celebration (and of course Christians can still observe the birth if Jesus in private) but it just doesn’t work to have competing holidays at the same time. When the season to be jolly rolls around, let’s all get together and bake cookies.

Have we learned nothing from Mr. Hankey?

the moment of silence is useless… its like the thing that we stand up for the flag… we dont do either in our school(or at least our class) there is ample time to goof off or pray

i come from a high school where everyone is polite and generally nice. ive noticed christan slogans. but about the things like saying sexually explicit ones should be allowed, they shouldent because they are offensive.

like a racist one is offensive. since school is required it is also required that we see these things and so… we shouldent have to. (but then i dissagree with a uniform too so…)

and as for the teachers… there is one substitue who acts christan and another teacher who is christan very responsably. nope everythings great im my school (except the actual learning part, thats the only part thats really lacking)

and one person said that easter wasent religious because it was a pagan holiday… either way its religious. Christmas came from the rebirth of the sun god Ra. also religous and therefore it offends any non egyptians who arent about 2000 years old

Rackensack, that was beautiful. Thank you for expressing the obvious (at least I think so!) so eloquently.

::applauds::

rackensack, you ain’t one of them s’ponsible parental-types, are you? :slight_smile:

sqweels, although I agree with you about the “separation of religion and holiday,” you don’t need to delve into the history of the holiday, especially since it’s pretty irrelevant to today’s celebrations. Suffice it to say that some people celebrate Christmas as a high holy day, and some celebrate it as a season of warm feelings, and some don’t celebrate it at all.

Still waiting on my Jehovah’s Witness question…

Esprix


Ask the Gay Guy!

Okay, wheres Cessandra?

This question was hotly debated at Christmastime. Three of the major participants were DavidB, MajorMD, and Melin. This thread seems much tamer than that one was!

I’m on the fence on this issue. In the primary grades we do lots of arts projects, cutting and pasting, drawing, gluing, that sort of thing. It’s hard enough to keep the kids’ attention for long in any one spot; holiday themed projects are one way to get and keep their interest. Kids, little kids, want to draw and paint what they know, and this means Christmas trees and reindeer, menorahs and dreidels. If there’s anything else from any other tradition they want to do, we do it. We try to be inclusive, rather than exclusive, and to teach about the different ways of celebrating different holidays around the world, but grounded on the experience of the kids in the classroom. So I don’t have a problem with this sort of thing in class where appropriate.

I would have a problem with witnessing, or requiring a prayer. As for a moment of silence: anytime I can get 20-25 7 or 8 years olds silent for a whole minute at a time I’m the one saying a prayer…of thanks! :wink:

Goldie


Gentlemen certainly DO prefer blondes –
and with good reason!

Yue Han, how do you KNOWschools were different 10-15 years ago? You seem WAY too smart to have been in high school all this time! For everyone else, how do you know that it’s the same?

I’ve taught summer school high school classes in my home town. No, things don’t seem a lot different to me, but I’m not a high school student, so it would be hard for me to know.

We now return you to the original thread.

Bucky

I was listening to an NPR story this morning on the oral arguments over prayers at football games. (Ya gotta love Nina Totenberg!) The main issue, of course, is the public prayer, but the families that are suing also allege their children have experienced significant harassment and humiliation – including from teachers – for their different (ie, Catholic and Mormon) beliefs in what I assume is an overwhelmingly Protestant school. The problem is so bad that the families have gotten permission to sue ANONYMOUSLY to avoid further problems.

Not every school is a bastion of enlightenment.


Up, up and away!

Yue Han said,

I’m sure you are correct overall. However, my little brother attended the same high school I did until last year and there is {i]still* a teacher there who gives out detention to any student she hears utter the word “God” in a non-religious context. I, personally, received detention twice from this woman for saying such evil things as, “Oh my God!” upon receiving a bad test score or “For God’s sake!” in a conversation with another student. I live in the Bible Belt and this is considered acceptable for a teacher to do.

Another example involves the child of a co-worker of mine and it happened two months ago. She was held after school and stripped of her bonus points for the day (school program) for refusing to remove her pentagram necklace at school. The school does not prohibit religious symbols but they do have rules against gang symbols. She was told by her teacher to “take that witchy stuff off.” When Katie explained that the pendant was a symbol of her religion, she was told that there was no religion with that symbol. Katie said she was Wiccan and was told that Wiccan wasn’t a religion. Well, Katie’s parents got involved and it went all the way to the superintendent of schools where he declared (under advisement of school lawyers and ACLU advocates) that Katie would be allowed to wear her necklace without harassment. However, the school promoted her faster than she should have been in order to get her out of there and on to high school.

So, while these cases either had “happy” endings or weren’t that bad to start with, they do still exist in today’s schools in some places.


I always try to do things in chronological order.

Personally, I can’t wait until they stick prayer back in public schools – then teaching my kids The Lord’s Prayer backwards won’t have been in vain.

Kidding … sort of…

hey yeah i go to school and this last friday we had a speaker come and vist my class. well, instead of speeching on the topic he was suppossed to, he spent most of his time on how he is a born again christain and all that stuff and you know what, i felt kinda offended since i am not of that religion- but you dont see me being rude and just well…plain annoying- get over it!!!


~kelly~