I confess I would feel more outraged on David’s behalf, and on his son’s, if the Christmas objects involved had been religious symbols rather than secular ones. I don’t intend to rehash the discussion going on in the other thread, but I think the distinction really is important. Santa is not a religious symbol; elves and wreaths and ornaments are not religious symbols (unless the ornament is of an angel or some such thing). They reflect popular culture, not religion.
I would be upset if the class had put together a Nativity pageant and acted out the whole going-to-Bethlehem no-room-at-the-inn bright-stars-and-angels-singing three-Kings-bearing-gifts routine, for these are specifically the Christian story associated with this time of year. Had they made angel’s wings or shepherd’s hoods rather than Santa hats, I’d be on the phone to the principal right along with David. Had they been singing Christmas hymns rather than winter holiday songs, ditto.
But the things that David has described here have no religious significance. In my mind it would be the same as being offended because, at Thanksgiving time, the kids drew a picture of a turkey or a cornicopia, given that Thanksgiving was specifically instituted as a Christian event. Or exchanged paper hearts on Valentine’s Day (you do know that it’s actually St. Valentine’s Day, right?).
You may or may not choose to have your children – or yourselves – participate in the non-religious popular cultural winter holiday events that occur at this time of year, but don’t take every trapping that is generally associated with this time of year and assume that it is a tool or a symbol of Christianity just because the Church chose to select this (incorrect) date, with all the festivals and hoopla already associated with it, to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
Yes, it does; but understanding can’t really come at a young age, especially when talking about the pre-school age of David B’s son. (As a personal anecdote, my best friend as a very young child was Jewish. My parents continualy tried to explain why Judaism was different from Catholicism, but even up to the age of 7, the only real difference I understood was that he couldn’t play on Saturdays and I couldn’t play on Sundays.)
I don’t think that teaching children (by which I mean under the age of 9) what all of the various holdiays mean will really have an impact on the children; I think giving them generic ‘holiday’ activities where they can fill in their own symbols will work best.
Melin has a good point, but I’m a little concerned that the teachers never gave David B’s child (or any of the other children) the chance to draw a menorrah (yeah, that’s definitely misspelled. Sorry) or dreidel. Santa, for all the attempts to call him a ‘universal’ figure, is still pretty Christian culture dominant.
JMCJ
Die, Prentiss, Die! You will never have a more glorious opportunity!
Very good points, Melin. You might want to add Holloween to that list, which is All Saints Day, All Hollow’s Eve.
All of what you say is correct, including the incorrect date of Dec 25th -Saturnalia. It was 3 or 4 BC sometime in March or April, I’m told. But I would not like the Christmas Holiday to lose it’s religious message of Good Will to All Mankind, Joy to The World altogether.
An angel on a tree does not favor one religion, since Jews believe in angels too.
Is the answer, to appease everyone, get it off TV, out of stores, out of schools, off the radio, off buildings etc, do away with Christmas entirely? That would make my child sad.
Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]
We currently have a mennorah, a clay divali candle, and an advent wreath gracing our dining room table. My children made them while studying other cultures. They’ve studied Kwanzaa, Ramadan, and the Feast of St. Lucia, to name a few.
My children attend a catholic school. Surprised?
Compared to when I was growing up, I think a big effort has been made by both public and private schools to approach other cultures/beliefs with more sensitivity and open-mindedness than we have in the past. Despite the caustic debate that’s been raging here, I believe most people are good hearted and open to compromise.
I’m not a teacher. But if I were, and I knew that one of my children felt left out, I would do my best to appease that child. Not because his parents came in with fists swinging, but because I would NEVER deliberately hurt a child’s feelings.
And, for the record, I do know a bit how you feel, David. My children are one of the few children at school who are not allowed to trade, or buy, Pokemon cards. I’ve dealt with more tears than you can imagine over these insipid pieces of cardboard. The kids trade them on the bus, on the playground, at home. And my kids just have to watch. They don’t understand yet why their grinch mom is doing this to them. But I’m standing firm.
It would make my life a whole lot easier if the whole Pokemon thing would disappear. I’d be thrilled if all the parents got together and said, “Let’s end this madness. No more cards at school.” But I’m not counting on it. Nor am I cursing the parents who buy into it. Clearly people have different ways of raising their kids, and that’s their prerogative. Meanwhile I’ll just have to grin and bear it. And wipe off a lot of tears.
John John, thanks. I appreciate your efforts to understand what we Jews go through this time of year. You wrote
Would those 50 kids really be upset if Christmas was not mentioned in public school? We’re not talking about cancelling the Christmas holiday itself, only cancelling its observance in school! Don’t they get enough of Christmas at home, in church, and on tv? Why does it need to be a special school event?
And if that was the goal, do you think they’d admit it? I don’t. And I don’t think that was the goal anyway, because I don’t think they really sat down and planned it. These are not evil people we’re talking about – just people who don’t understand what it’s like to be “other.”
Yes, and they could have accomplished it just as well by cutting out and gluing a menorah, or a dreidel, or a Kwanzaa candle-thingie (sorry, dunno what it’s called), or something for Ramadan, or a snowman, or a snowflake, or a million other things for cutting and gluing. The same can be said about everything else. I’m sorry, but I don’t think that is a valid excuse.
No, it also has the importance that my son gives it. And if he is told that he is creating a photo-ornament to hand on his Christmas tree, and he has no tree to hang it on, that may make him feel bad. Yes, we can hang it elsewhere, but that’s not really the point. One parent came to class and handed out “reindeer dust” (or something) to sprinkle on your lawn so Santa comes. Again, I don’t think she was evil or anything, just clueless.
John John said:
Why should they be upset? They celebrate the holiday at home, at church, whatever. Why should a public school celebrate it?
Melin said:
Do you think a wreath is a secular or religious symbol? My Christian friends tell me it has quite a lot of religious meaning behind it, though they also note that they didn’t always know that. (One friend of mine who converted to Judaism from Catholocism hung a wreath on her door one year. When her Jewish husband got home, he was a bit upset. She didn’t know it had any religious meaning. He did. Ironic? Yes. And maybe the teachers there are like this woman – they didn’t realize it has religious meaning. But it does.)
As I’ve noted in the other thread, this is easy for you to say. I suspect you would feel otherwise if the shoe were on the other foot, but I also know there is no way I’m going to convince you of this. If anybody here wants to see how we’ve already gone back and forth on this, they can check out the other thread.
John John said:
This is a straw man question. Nobody has proposed anything about TV, stores, radio, buildings, etc. The only thing this and the related thread have discussed is how government (and here, government schools) should deal with it.
After all, since you note that we see Christmas all over, why do we need it in school as well?
PunditLisa said:
No, actually. I’ve noticed that the Catholic (and other religious) schools seem to do a better job teaching about other religions than some of the public ones do! For example, there used to be a church in town that also had a pre-school. Most of the Jewish families in town sent their kids there because the pre-school was taught secularly, including the teaching about many different holidays. Now, the sad side of the story is that new officers of the church came in and made the pre-school devoutly religious, so their attendance dropped significantly, but maybe they’ll learn their lesson.
Exactly. And that’s all I’m asking for. Like I said, I don’t think any of these people are evil, just a bit clueless. They don’t understand.
Good for you! Luckily, mine are too young to worry. But I know how easy it is to spend lots of money on that stuff – I used to play Magic: The Gathering (a precursor to the the Pokemon card game, made by the same company). But that’s neither here nor there, really.
Noooo! I need it to stay around for a long time and make lots of money. I own stock in Hasbro!
Nope. I just get sick of the people who make it harder than it needs to be.
I would be afraid that anyone else might think that I am being insincere, but you will know better.
Why not form a group of fellow atheists for the purpose of starting a private school? It may seem daunting, but you can move in steps. At least you will be manifesting your convictions rather than butting your head against a wall. And who knows, your school might become a model for education, proving your point to everyone in the most efficient and most intelligible way.
As the owners of the school, y’all can call the shots. At least until the nation’s snowball toward socialism is complete.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Now, as with so many other things, there can also be a religious (not necessarily Christian) component:
They placed a wreath on the door to the Lodge my father belonged to when he died. Wreaths not associated with a holiday or holyday hang in many homes strictly as decoration.
Libertarian, your suggestion seems inconsistent with other things I’ve seen you posts. David should not need to start his own private school simply to avoid having Christian religion/culture shoved down his son’s throat.
Political expedience is all that matters to those charged with securing your liberty.
(I know, I know. “We are having an ethical discussion here, Lib. Get out.” Shees! My philosophy is based on the ethical principle of noncoercion, but y’all are busy with the “real world”, i.e., the majoritarian one. Have fun.)
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Keeves, I agree with you that David should not have to start his own school to not have Christianity pushed down his kid’s throat. But that ain’t what happened here. Get it through your heads, people: not everything traditionally associated with the winter holiday that we call Christmas is Christian!
It seems to me that people are just looking for bones to pick and fights to have. For reasons to be offended, or to claim that they are being oppressed. The cultural trappings of Christmas not directly related to the Nativity are NOT OF CHRISTIAN ORIGIN, and there’s a whole secular holiday going on here that has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus! Educate yourselves, people! And knock that chip off your shoulder.
You don’t have a Christmas tree to put an ornament on? That’s your choice, but don’t tell me that it’s because it’s a Christian religious symbol. Don’t truck with Santa? Fine and dandy, but don’t tell me it’s because he is a tool of the Baby Jesus, whose birthday Christians also happen to be celebrating at this time. Don’t tell me that a wreath is an exclusively Christian symbol when its roots are in ancient Greece and Rome. And you wanna talk about mistletoe and Yule logs?
David, did the school acknowledge Halloween? Did you complain about it if they did? Did it do anything to recognize Thanksgiving? What was your response? Have you ever given your wife a Valentine’s card or gift? Will you complain if the kids are cutting out red paper hearts in February?
Look at customs in other countries that celebrate the Christian Nativity, particularly countries with a strong Christian/Catholic tradition. You will find many traditions associated with this time of year in this country which you think are Christian don’t exist there. That’s because so many of the things that we DO do here come from our strongly Northern European cultural heritage rather than any Christian religious heritage.
You and you alone decide whether you will exclude your child from the cultural celebration of Christmas that has nothing to do with the Nativity. That’s your right and your privilege as a parent. But don’t go castigating the school for participating in the cultural aspects of a national holiday so long as it is not pushing the religious aspects. And you can teach your child about the winter solstice and how people across the lands and from time out of mind have celebrated the return of the light with odd customs of one sort or another. Sort out the ones that are Christian from those that are secular.
Frankly, as a Christian, I resent those who try to foist all the non-religious trappings of Christmas off on the Church. When you hear Christians talk about the “true meaning of Christmas” you may be sure that they are talking about the religious holiday that is important to them, the Nativity. The commercialism, the focus on gifts and parties and symbolisms that have nothing to do with Christ don’t belong to the Nativity; they take away from it. Santa does not show up for church on Christmas – he has no part there. We’re singing hymns, not non-religious carols.
There are at least TWO holidays that are being celebrated here. It’s your choice not to celebrate either one of them, but don’t confuse the two, either. By doing so you show not only a fundamental misunderstanding of these holidays, you are also attributing to the Christian religion something that is not part of that religion. What bothers me is that you don’t seem to care what Christians think about their own symbols, or to acknowledge that symbols can have more than one meaning. You think that it’s Christian, so it must be so. Well, just because ignorant peasants in the Middle Ages thought that Jews drank the blood of little Christian babies didn’t make it so; just because you think something is part of the Christian religion doesn’t make it so, either.
Melin, no one cares about the origins of any particular practice. What matters is that here and now, these things are associated with a religion which I do not believe in, and my kids should not be forced to put up with that.
Yeah, I know. You can see it in some of these very threads. They make excuses and rationalize and put up straw men. I’m used to it. Sometimes I get more upset (as I did in the other thread), sometimes I ignore them when they just repeat themselves endlessly after they’ve been shot down. I’ll talk to reasonable people, and I’ll fight the fights that matter most, whether with my monetary support, my time, or my work.
Sorry, Melin, that was a bit too insensitive. I should not have said “no one”. For a Christian such as yourself, it is important to know the origins of these various things, and I commend you for doing so. My point was that for non-Christians, the association with Christianity is much more important than the actual origin.
Actually, David, I think you should start a school, just because I think it would be a damn good school. We wouldn’t have to worry about any damned idiots trying to do stupid things. Why? We’d have a good, clear-headed, SDMB poster running it. Try looking up the rules for chartered schools and such. I think you might be tempted (think about it! Start a school that will teach grades preschool through high school graduation! A whole generation of people thinking for themselves!! Just start with preschool and create a new grade every year.)
In the first few years after having left the Catholic Church I used to have troubles with these issues and more. I will preface this by saying that I am not raising kids and that necessarily makes this discussion more complicated. But I think some of what I have to say will be more general.
One of the most difficult things for me to deal with was the issue of sacred music. I am a devoted singer and am especially fond of the “greats”: Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Verdi, etc. But the vast majority of this music is sacred, and in order to be able to truly appreciate the greatness and emotion of the music, you have to be able to understand the religious devotion of the composer. It got to the point where I almost could not sing this music anymore because of my fervent desire to break from the church and all it stood for.
Then I realized that I didn’t have to do this. That it wasn’t an all or nothing proposition. That one could not believe and still understand and respect the motivations of the believer. And that, most importantly, one could distill from a religious tradition the concepts that are central to all of us as humans, regardless of religion.
I went through the same transformation in regards to Christmas. It was much easier for me to do because Christmas was such an ingrained part of my life that I could not really have considered giving it up. But I did consider giving it up until I realized that the mechanics and ideology of Christmas were still worthwhile from a human perspective. That the lessons we learn about giving and sharing were important in any context.
I understand the desire to not have to subjected to religious traditions that aren’t your own. I feel the same way. But I also feel that it is important to be able to not repond in a knee-jerk fashion against religious-based holidays. And it is important to be able to separate the religious from the cultural from the ideological implications of the holiday, and to take from it what will benefit you the most.
