Surgoshan: I just wanted to thank you. I cannot think of a higher compliment than the one you just paid me.
So Keeves, I am genuinely curious. What, if anything, do you do about Halloween, Thanksgiving, and St. Valentine’s Day?
-Melin
I guess what I don’t get here is, if for Christians it’s not part of their religion, why does the fact that a non-Christian THINKS it is make it so? If I think that Wiccans, or those who call themselves modern witches, are devil worshipers, does that make it so?
-Melin
Dude -
You said it more eloquently than I ever could have:
In an ideal world, David’s son would never have to encounter all the “trappings” of Christmas. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to ever be the case in the real world. So use these opportunities to teach your child how to handle those things that make him uncomfortable, to understand those things that he doesn’t understand, to give meaning to those things that merit meaning in his life, and to ignore those things that deserve to be ignored.
For the record, lest I come across as a defender of the Christian faith, I don’t consider myself a religious person. In fact, if anything I’m “anti” organized religion. But I’m definitely “pro” Christmas. I love most of the cultural/secular aspects of it (except the “Shop! Shop! Shop!” part of it - but then again I hate shopping any time of the year). I love the lights, decorations, colors, etc. I love the music, even the religious music, because I just love music period. And I love spending time with my family and friends.
So as an “ambivalent” believer, I’ve chosen to give meaning to the aspects of Christmas that I want to have meaning, and I ignore those parts that I care little or nothing about.
David:
“Sometimes we’re so blind, running through the haze.” — Bernie Taupin and Elton John, We All Fall In Love Sometimes, Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy, MCA Records, 1973
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Ok, I talked to the principal today. I suggested that rather than focussing solely on Christmas for the last two weeks, as they did this year, they take some time to discuss the other holidays. Also, that they include non-Christmas songs in their “holiday” program.
She said they do try to stay away from the religious Christmas songs and more toward the “commercial” ones, but I pointed out to her that even this makes some children feel left out (I used the example of my son at the other park district program, as I described above). She also said they had used other songs in the past (such as “I have a little dreidel”) and acknowledged that this year they did not.
She said that they are having a staff meeting on Monday and will discuss these things then. I offered to help her with anything she needs in the future, and told her to feel free to call us and ask us for suggestions (I’m hoping we won’t have to go thru this at Easter as well, for instance).
She seemed to take everything quite nicely. Like I said, I don’t think these folks are evil, just that they don’t quite understand.
And for anybody that is wondering – my preference would be that they do none of these things in the school – that they leave it for home and church. But I know I’m going to lose that battle. So if they’re going to do holiday-related stuff, I’d rather they expand it so the kids learn about all the holidays.
===
Lib – I gotta tell ya, I have no idea what that quote above is supposed to mean in this discussion.
Kepi said:
< Sigh > I’m sorry to see that my main point still isn’t making it across here…
I am not trying to insulate my son from any mention of Christmas. I’ve gone over this before, folks – read above from the beginning of this thread if you’ve forgotten. Yes, he’s going to encounter it in the real world and has to know how to deal with it. But this does not mean it’s ok for a public school to be pushing it on him. Did I make that clear enough? I hope so…
David -
I apologize. I didn’t mean to imply that you were trying to insulate your son. I was just trying to suggest a way to turn this situation into an opportunity to teach your son how to feel good about himself, his family, and the beliefs he will grow up with. This is a battle he will likely face his entire life. I realize, however, that at age 3 1/2, he may not be able to fully understand what is going on.
Christmas in school is a holdover from our agrarian roots when people lived a long way from one another. For some kids, school was the only place they could see some of their friends, if not all of them. So school was the only place they were all together at one time and could exchange Christmas presents, Valentine cards and have Halloween parties.
That’s how it was for me. I lived on a farm four miles from town and more than a mile from the nearest kids my own age. It was too far and dangerous for me to walk and Dad was too busy running the farm to drive me to see anyone else and Mom was too busy raising my much younger brothers. I never saw any of my friends from school during the summer or the winter holidays.
Today, of course, it’s different. America is now an urban nation. We all live much closer to one another and transportation is faster. Kids can see each other twelve months a year with little or no problem. Perhaps it is still convenient to have holidays at school when everyone is together, but why not have it at church or temple or synagogue or the VFW hall or at a park?
Let school be for school work.
>< DARWIN >
__L___L
As I reflected on this thread today I found a certain irony that the both the avowed atheist and the Christian complain of Santa and the other secular trappings of Christmas – one because they seem too religious and the other because they are not religious at all.
-Melin
Melin
You all have been very eloquent in your positions in this thread but I have to say, Melin seems to have hit upon the core reaction of most Christian people: if you don’t like it, ignore it, or learn to live with it, but do not try to change it, or tell us what it means, just because you are not part of it. We all cannot be part of everything in life. At one time or another we have all felt OTHER. Live with it and do not let it destroy you.
Admittedly, it is hard to ignore since it is so ubiquitous, which might make you realize, it is not going away. Too many people make money off it, which was not, as Melin correctly points out, its intention.
The reasons that have upset you, David, is why some Jews and Christians put their children in religious schools. You might want to consider that as an option, if all this is that upsetting. It sounds easier than starting your own school.
I really can’t add anything better, or more reasoned, than what Melin has already said in this thread on this subject.
I will tell you, I do not want my Holiday, Christmas, changed just because some people feel excluded. I also am sick of the HAPPY HOLIDAYS felicitation as a way of avoiding saying Merry Christmas. Christians are even greeting each other in that fashion.
As the great mind of the 20th Century said, “Why can’t we all just get along?”
Pox vobiscum and Shalom, friends.
I just realized that I did not address the main point of your contention, David, hope I understood it- what to do with your son, or any Jewish kid, that feels left out.
A- Enroll them is a Hanukkah program
B- take them out of that school and put them in a religious school C- ask school to be more multicultural
D- just let them do the non religious aspects of the winter celebration
E- sue the school for bias - not worth it
F- convert 
G- have after school Hanukkah party at your house and invite all the kids in the class
That’s all I can think of at the moment.
Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]
I don’t think that’s David’s point, though, John John. First, as I understand it, David is atheist. Second, he would understand that there are many who would not appreciate the religious aspects of Hanukah being taught to their children, and indeed, in a public school, religion has no place in the curriculum except in teaching tolerance or in a survey or comparative religions type class.
Here’s an interesting link about Yule: http://www.pagansunite.com/yule.html I’d urge those of you who think that the trappings of the Christmas season are Christian to read it, and post your responses.
-Melin
John John said:
You just aren’t getting it, are you? We’re talking about the public schools. In fact, I pointed this out to you at least twice already. Frankly, I think you have a lot of nerve to tell me that I should just live with it and not change it when the public schools push a given religious holiday.
As I noted before, this is a straw man. We’re not talking about “everything in life,” we’re talking about public schools. Please try to pay attention.
Unlikely. Most religious people put their kids in religious school to get more religious teaching, not less. And the simple fact remains that this should not be what parents are forced to do. Also, how many atheist schools are there around? How many Wiccan schools? In some areas (such as around here), how many Jewish schools? Get the picture?
Jesus H. Christ, man, do you pay any attention at all? Have you read any of the responses here? Apparently not, because you’re still talking about something completely different!
We’ll get along fine, as soon as people like you stop trying to push your religious beliefs on me using the government (and then have the gall to blame me for your actions!).
Since you obviously didn’t read my previous reply to you, I’ll restate one of the things I said. In particular, I asked you: They celebrate the holiday at home, at church, whatever. Why should a public school celebrate it?
Well?
I visited the Pagan site Melin mentioned, and I have to say that I’m more convinced of the legitimacy of David’s argument now. As I understand, David (being an atheist) doesn’t want the symbols and rituals of a religious holiday forced on his child. Some here (including me) have argued that David’s resentment in unfounded because, after all, the school (and society for that matter) are focusing on the non-religious aspects of the holiday, not the religious ones.
Well, after reading the Pagan site, it appears to me that although the symbols and rituals in question aren’t necessarily part of the Christian celebration of this holiday, they are religous nonetheless - albeit the Pagan religion. And David certainly has a right to object to his son being exposed Paganism as much as he does Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.
With that said, I personally don’t give a wreath or a Christmas tree or mistletoe or a host of other holiday items any religious significance at all - Pagan, Christian or otherwise. So it bothers me not to be exposed to them at this time of the year. However, I support David’s right to feel differently.
Kepi, that pagan site and the information it gives is exactly why there are many people who are Christian who do NOT celebrate Christmas, and why it was forbidden by the Puritans when this country was first settled.
And if David’s rant was about that, maybe we wouldn’t be having an argument. But if you go back to his OP, he’s ranting about having Christianity forced down his kid’s throat, not having paganism (which so many people don’t even recognize as a religion in the modern world) involved. And we are still left to wonder – since he has thus far refused to answer the question – whether he objects to any Halloween (incredibly pagan! with some Christian overtones) activities in school, any Thanksgiving (established as a Christian holiday) activities, and any Valentine’s Day exchanges of paper hearts, that sort of thing.
Cause if he doesn’t, it’s rank hypocrisy.
-Melin
David
me-----------------------------------
We all cannot be part of everything in life.
David
First let me say, David, it is not my intention to inflame your emotions on this subject but to add my two cents towards helping you find a peaceful solution to the problem. I’m sure you are aware that you may encounter some Christian frustration over Christmas being questioned, while being sooooo imitated? I see the irony.
It is not a straw man issue that we will all feel other at one point in our lives about a certain issue. That is a fact of life. The question is, what do you do about it. Do you want to battle against each issue you feel excluded from? Before your long life is over that would be millions of issues. The real issue is whether you will wage a war against this celebration because it is in a Public School, or accept it. That choice is yours.
I did not only suggest you should live with it or accept it as the solution. I gave you several suggestion. What do you think of the other suggestions I gave you? I also suggested that Christmas was so ingrained in American culture that it would be virtually impossible to avoid it ANYWHERE. Do you really want to make the school so antiseptic that nothing of American culture can be discussed or celebrated, no Holloween, Thanksgiving, Valentines Day? Would you feel better if they did a Hanukkah celebration in school? Didn’t you say they included that?
David, you say you are an atheist? How is that possible if you are Jewish?
I think the answer is to do celebrate them all at one time, rather than not celebrate any.
Y2K, BFD
For a change of pace and a completely different slant on Christmas, these are not my views and are only offered as an interesting bit of information, read this:
“Christmas is a Jewish Holiday
(or at least it should be)
If Christmas isn’t exactly a Jewish holiday – then it ought to be
Jews should be able to join in with others in celebrating the birth of the greatest Jew that ever lived
maybe some of us Jews aren’t able to celebrate because we see Christmas as a Jesus holiday and we haven’t yet discovered that Jesus isn’t prejudiced against us
others might be turned away by mistletoe, Macy’s merchandising, or middle class merriment
maybe we could manage to feel like celebrating if Santa Claus wasn’t crowding Jesus off the scene
after all, remember whose birthday it’s supposed to be
some say: “Santa Claus is a capitalist agent who promotes the idea that happiness comes through things.” He is certainly a salesman more than a saint
others say: “Santa is a communist agent because he dresses in red and only gives away things bought by other people”
Santa is no friend of truth. Have you ever noticed how scrupulously he avoids every mention of Jesus?
even if he has a beard Santa is not Jewish and such a nogoodnik should have no part in our celebration of Christmas as a Jewish holiday
all we need for Christmas or any joyous celebration is Jesus
some of us Jews join with the rest of the world to honor him – he is the world’s oldest living Jew – since he is still alive
some of us Jews enjoy the idea that people from every race sing praise to the God of Israel because of Jesus
they read the Jewish Bible and honor our ancestors. People like Abraham, Moses, David, and Daniel are heroes because of Jesus
(some people even love one another and are good to their neighbors because of Jesus)
all of Jesus’ apostles spoke with a Jewish accent
all of the writers of the New Testament are Jews
all of the teachings of Jesus like love, peace, caring, sharing, joyful worship and belonging to God’s family are Jewish ideas and ideals
giving presents is a very Jewish thing to do
in fact God gave His people the very best Christmas present, His very own Son (see Isaiah 9:6 and Psalm 2)
what could be better or nicer than to give one’s true self as a present to those one loves?
that’s what God did in Jesus
He gave Himself so that you might have real joy
though we don’t know exactly what day He was born, December 25th is as nice as any day and every day to celebrate his birth
if you knew what we know – that Jesus is really the Messiah – then you would agree that Christmas should be a Jewish holiday
May God give you much joy!”
C&P’d from JFJ site. Everyone has a different view of Christmas it seems.
Y2K, BFD
Although I regret that your son felt left out from the celebration, he may have just learned something from it since it was probably the first of many unsolicited reality checks he’ll receive throughout his lifetime.
It’s like this…he felt left out because he is left out. That’s a choice you made as a parent.
Holidays are going to be observed to some degree in schools. That’s a given. How children “experience” them is up to them. You job as a parent is to prepare them so that, if they encounter something completely contrary to their own mindset, they can cope without too much turmoil.
Learning about other religions is, after all, still learning. Frankly, I welcome the opportunities my son has to observe how other people practice/observe their religions, and my beliefs are like yours. Forewarned is forearmed.
And, if my son gets holidays from school due to the majority’s belief in a jolly old elf or a babe in a manger, that’s great. It means I have more time to spend with him.
Rysdad said:
Yes, it is still learning. So why did this school just teach about the one holiday? No good reason, that’s why.
I’m really beginning to wonder if people read the threads before they start responding. My fingers are beginning to hurt from re-typing the same thing over and over and over again…