David, you aren’t the only person whose fingers get tired of retyping the same thing.
Why are you refusing to answer my question? Is it because you don’t like what the answer would reveal?
-Melin
Well, just how many should they teach?(“None” isn’t an acceptable answer).
Do you actually begrudge the opportunity to learn…even if it’s only about one religion? If you don’t think the school has presented a sufficient variety of viewpoints, then you’ll have to do it yourself.
Rysdad asked:
Yes, I do bedgrudge them the opportunity to learn if it’s only about one religion. If they are only going to teach about one, they should teach about none, as I’ve explained earlier.
Melin -
I suspect that he hasn’t answered your question because he has yet to figure out how he can call it “a strawman” and get away with it.
So answer the question already, David. Do you object to the trappings of any religiously (i.e., Christian) based holiday, no matter how secular those trappings are? Or is it OK to expose your child to those trappings, since they theoretically don’t have any religious meaning anyway?
If all the trappings point to the same religion, I would consider it offensive and underhanded. Trying to point to each individual incident and saying,“How can you object to this little thing?”, and"How can you object to that little thing?" is the equivalent of my throwing a large pile of dirt in you face and saying,“How can you object to this tiny piece of dirt?” and “How can you object to that tiny piece if dirt?”
The totality of the experience is what matters, and in my opinion, the totality points heavily torwards religious influence in some school situations.
David, you opined (not “explained”) earlier that they shouldn’t teach any religion if they’re only going to teach one.
I disagree.
Our society is mainly Judeo-Christian. Learning about the society you live in makes sense to me. You still have the right to observe, or non-observe, any moral code you want.
After all, the school isn’t forcing your son to participate in any religious rites.
Being different, in whatever manner, will subject a person to being viewed as outside the norm. That person will have to learn to cope. I don’t see anything wrong with that. It might make you son a stronger, more resilient person.
And thus the tyranny of the Majority rears it’s ugly head again. First, do not refer to the Jewish-Christian founding of this nation. The founders of this nation who were of the religious bent were not tolerant of Jews, and would be highly offended at such an artificial term. Second, I doubt very much if the above followers would have approved of the way most fundamentalists worship today. Third, your view that tolerance consists of everybody learning about your religion would be laughable if you were the only one promoting it, but unfortunately you aren’t.
I believe that DavidB is objecting to religious influence in one specific area-public education.
BTW, it is possible to be born Jewish, but have an atheistic outlook on life, and I am surprised that you tried to use that straw-man arguement.
at my sons Christmas show friday.they sung 30 songs,20 of which I’d never heard before. Only 2 had to do with religion. Most were about snow,and santa,etc.
The principal mentioned Xmas for Christians,Ramadan for Muslims,and Hanukah(sp) for Jews. So they got 3 in…guess she didn’t have time for rastafarianism 
slythe said:
But hasn’t it already been established here that all the trappings of Christmas don’t point to the same religion, i.e., Christianity. Wreaths, evergreen trees, colored lights, snowmen, etc. have no signficance in the Christian celebration of the Nativity. No more significance than turkeys and cornucopias in the Christian celebration of Thanksgiving. Or no more significance than heart shaped cards in the Christian celebration of the Feast of St. Valentine. Ditto for the significance of ghosts and goblins in the Christian celebration of All Hallow’s Eve.
Where do you get off saddling Christianity with ownership of symbols and rituals that play no part in the Christian celebration of Christmas?
I don’t see how coloring a picture of a wreath or cutting snowflakes out of construction paper in any way forces someone to learn about a particular religion. Again, you’ve given religious meaning to an object that is inherently not religious. If you view it as part of the religious celebration, it is because you choose to view it that way. Not because it actually is.
So your argument that it’s the totality of the celebration that’s offensive is simply your strawman.
I don’t think so. orangecake’s reference to “rastafarianism” shows the true nature of Christian tolerance of other beliefs in this country. “Hey, we made a token mention of three other religions, so leave us alone!”
What is so evil about leaving religion out of one aspect of our lives, the public schools? Is Christianity so weak that it must be re-enforced constantly, even against the wishes of a minority?
I am soooo glad other religions were mentioned at the Christmas celebration. Was there a school-wide Hannukah celebration where there was a token mention of Christianity? How was Ramadan celebrated?
Were there any Pagan celebrations or ceremonies presented to the whole school, with weeks of preparation, and parents invited to watch?
IMHO, the token mention of other religions and beliefs in today’s public school is an insult which far outweighs any perceived slight felt by the Christian community.
Actually, slythe, I’d be willing to bet that there was a heavy dose of paganism inherent in that Christmas presentation.
And you wanna talk about Halloween?
-Melin
I’m neither Christian nor Jewish, and I don’t give a rat’s ass what faith the founding fathers/Pilgrims/Indians were. That’s irrelevant. That was then; this is now. And the argument against “majoritism” is hogwash. To extrapolate on that view, would you impose “minoritism” (a la political correctness)? Fooey.
I’m relatively sure the public schools aren’t teaching Christianity as the be-all and end-all, and the mere fact that they have pageants, plays and activities that revolve around an increasingly secular holiday doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
So the kids have holiday activities, so what? If DavidB doesn’t want his son to attend, he can take him to the zoo that day.
I am equally opposed to forcing religion on anyone as I am to the minority dictating to the majority what is acceptable.
If you chose a different path, then you should know that there will be times when you’re going to be walking alone.
It sure is chic to be “politically incorrect”, isn’t it? Telling sexist or racist jokes isn’t wrong, it’s “politically correct”. Not caring about the rights of the minority isn’t wrong, it’s “politically incorrect”. Making snide comments about another’s concerns about his child’s religious upbringing isn’t rudeness or crassness, it’s “politically incorrect”.
This is not a matter of politics, people. This is a matter of trying to strike a balance between an increasingly growing Christian movement to “Bring this country back to Christ”, and people who don’t wish to go that way.
melin, nice try on the Halloween front, but I doubt very much if the schools try to present the holiday as a pagan day of celebration, with the background history presented to them. I also doubt very much if the children are told outright which Christmas symbols were taken from previous religious observances, or that Christmas itself was set at that point in December to overshadow pagan observances.
David -
A few questions have been asked that you haven’t answered. Do you/your family celebrate other holidays?
Many kids in public schools feel left out at Halloween. Many Christians do not celebrate Halloween. In fact, many families feel strongly enough about this, and other conflicts with their beliefs, that they take their kids out of public schools and home school them, or enroll them in schools whose curriculum is a better fit with their beliefs.
Gee, this sounds amazingly like how you feel about your child being exposed to the non-religious aspects of Christmas at your local school. And yet you seem to expect the schools to change to suit you. Guess the fact that you’re an atheist & sure you’re right vs. a fundamentalist “kook” makes this different?
Actually, the public schools have always had not only instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic as their core mission, but also reinforcing American values & culture. We learn about the American Revolution & the War of 1812 from a very different perspective than Students in Great Britain. The Civil War/War of Northern Aggression is taught differently in the North & the South. Local school boards even have control over how/whether evolution & creationism is taught in some states. I’m not saying all of this is good, mind you, but it is a reflection of American culture.
One of the terrific things about Christmas in America is the wide array of choices everyone has in how to observe it. It can be a deeply spiritual religious celebration, it can be a time to gather with family, it can be a time to eat, drink & spend too much & resolve to better next year ;), or in uniquely American style, it can be all of the above. I like to think of this season as a smorgasbord with an incredible range of foods (or customs) from all over the world. You can mix & match religious and secular dishes & create what is meaningful to you. Or you can say ewww - I’m a vegetarian & there is meat on that buffet - I don’t want any of it while your hungry child looks at it all with big eyes. That’s YOUR choice.
You know, you & other people on this board have mentioned Kwanzaa as having equal standing with Christmas, Chanukah, and Ramadan, all celebrations which have traditions going back thousands of years, as well as modern additions. Kwanzaa really came around when blacks in the 60’s found no meaning or relevance to what they believed & felt was important in existing holiday observances. So they formalized & added symbols to an African tradition, and got Hallmark to believe there were enough people who wanted something different to sell Kwanzaa stuff to… Seems like you could do the same thing - find some activity meaningful to you & your family to do at this time every year. That’s actually pretty easy; selling it to your child(ren) as better than what everyone does is not, but that’s what parents are constantly called upon to do about one thing or another (no, you can’t get into Pokemon, watch Southpark, play violent video games.) Sometimes, the acid test of our convictions is whether we can really explain them to our children.
You mentioned First Amendment rights in your argument for getting Christmas out of schools. The First Amendment grants you and everyone else the right to choose whether to believe in a higher being, which one(s) to believe in, and how to practice that belief. You have exercised your right to not believe in God, and have also chosen not to observe Christmas in any way. Your job, and your other rights as a citizen, including the eligibility to vote, or even run for office and try to change things, are not affected by your religious beliefs. Sounds like the 1st Amendment is working. It says that there shall be no law infringing upon your freedom of religion. Making Santa hats in art class hardly seems like a law infringing on that right.
Freedom OF religion is not the same thing as freedom FROM religion.
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
You’re right, Sue. Kwanzaa doesn’t have the same historical standing as Chanukah or Ramadan. So what is the excuse for the lack of Chanukah or Ramadan pageants in the public schools? I’m sure that there are also pagan holidays that the schools could take a week or two to celebrate, right? No, some people think that “mentioning” other holidays during the Christmas holiday fulfills the requirement of diversity.
BTW, the Supreme Court, through their interpretation of the Separation of Church and State, have declared that we do indeed have the right to freedom from religion, especially in a manditory public setting such as a public school.
slythe said:
My question to you: What is so religious, much less Christian, about coloring a picture of a wreath? How does making a Santa hat re-enforce Christianity? Why should singing “Jingle Bells” in a school pageant be offensive to anyone?
My sister, who teaches fourth grade, is very careful not to focus on the religious aspects of Christmas with her students. She does, however, mention the historical background of it, along with the background of Hanukkah and Kwaanza. But it’s not in any proselytizing way. More like in a “this is a big world we live in and lots of people believe different things, which is neither right nor wrong, and it would be good to understand that because it will make it easier for all of us to get along” kind of way. Then they spend time doing winter/seasonal related activities, such as cutting snowflakes out of construction paper and drawing pictures of snowpeople until, being the stealth Christian that she is, it’s time to convert the little heathens by decorating that symbol of religious oppression, the Christmas tree.
I think that’s the point at which she forces them to say aloud John 3:16.
And for good measure, she throws in John 14:6.
Then they close the worship session by singing that well-known Christian hymn of praise, “Winter Wonderland”.
Damn those Christians!
sigh
Here comes the big, bad atheist. I realize that there are many aspects of Christmas that have nothing to do with the Christian religion, and I don’t even mind if the children are taught the background of the holiday, as long as they are also taught about the pagan background on equal terms. Children are fully aware that Chirstmas is about the supposed birth of Jesus, but unless they get the full story from a non-biased source, they might assume that the Christmas tree, the wreath, and various other aspects originated with the Christians. Let’s get real, folks. In a lot of communities paganism=satanism, and a lot of school boards will do anything to avoid using the word at all. Pointing out that Halloween is a pagan holiday means absolutely nothing if the children are not told that fact.
BTW, isn’t anybody going to comment on the fact that I, an atheist, am fighting for equal rights for various religions? 
From Slythe:
(bold numbers added by me.)
- What Christmas pageants? It’s been a LONG time since I’ve known any public school to give a re-enactment of Mary & Joseph leaving Galilee, finding no room at an inn in Bethlehem, and taking shelter in a stable, delivering a child amidst the animals, and being visited by singing angels, shepherds & three kings/wise men/astronomers. There are winter concerts & Secret Santas, and sometimes, Christmas-themed plays done as extra-curricular activities. I have known some schools to make paper dreidels, and include simple Chanukah songs in their winter activities.
Ramadan is even more problematic, in that I believe it is only by coincidence that it coincides with the Christmas season this year. I don’t fully understand how it is calculated, but some years it is in the fall, sometimes in the summer, etc. I know of no cute Ramadan songs, and since it is essentially a time of penitence & fasting, there’s no fun foods to learn about either.
-
You know, I’ll bet a lot of rabbis & Islamic leaders are just as glad there’s no big secular aspects to their holidays. If you look hard in a part of the country with a reasonable Jewish population, you can find Chanukah wrapping paper & stuff, but it doesn’t come out in September as sson as stores clear away the back-to-school specials.
-
Cite? Numerous court decisions have upheld the right for groups to put up religious displays on public property for general viewing & enjoyment. There are limitations & regulations to this, but your right to freedom of religion does not mean that you can or should expect to live in a society with no tangible reminders that the founders of this country, and the authors of the Constitution & Bill of Rights that give you the right to freedom of religion, were themselves religious men.
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
I have read all of this thread, and I still am waiting with baited breath to hear David share with us how he deals with Saint Patrick’s Day, Halloween, Thanksgiving, etc. These holidays also have some religious connections, how do you deal with the school’s coverage of them? You seem to be answering and responding to many things, and you seem to be paying attention to what people are posting here. But you never seem to get around to answering that question. So I’ll join in and remind you of it.
I feel a need to speak out for a neglected minority in this country.
Everyone is concerned about kids from Jewish or atheist or other backgrounds feeling uncomfortable at singing religious Christmas songs. What about the poor kids who have never seen snow in their life being forced to sing Jingle Bells, White Christmas, Frosty, etc.? Who’s looking out for them & threatening to sue the school on their behalf?
- A rose by any other name would still have thorns -