This is a spin-off of the Christmas in School thread. I’ve asked this question a couple of times over there, and never been answered, so I thought I’d start a new thread devoted just to it.
This question is specifically addressed to those who feel that any Christmas-related activity in a public school imposes the Christian religion on those who are non-Christian, even if the activity has nothing to do with the religious aspect of the holiday (the Nativity) and deals only with the secular celebration (Santa Claus, wreaths, etc.). The objection is that these secular things, which have their roots in culture rather than religion (and often even in pre-Christian history) have become inextricably associated with a Christian holiday, and thus it is offensive to non-Christians for their children to have to do things in school like make paper ornaments or Santa hats.
Do you feel the same way about your children participating in Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Valentine’s Day? Are you as offended by a class project of making paper Valentines as you are by making paper ornaments? Does your school recognize Halloween in any way, and if so, do you protest when your child is involved in Halloween activities? Same question about Thanksgiving, when they learn about the Pilgrims giving thanks to God for the blessings of abundance, and cut out paper turkeys or cornacopias.
If your answer is yes, well then, at least you are consistent. If your answer is no, I’d like to know what the difference is, in your mind.
This is not meant to be a challenge, or a sarcastic or snarky question. I’d like to understand where you are coming from here.
Fuck it, I don’t care. They can put up a cross and nail someone to it for all I care. Just so long as they give him a lot of aspirin beforehand. I don’t believe in unnecessary cruelty.
Melin, stories about people who object about any Christmas celebration are usually bandied about this time of year, usually by people who wish to smear the A.C.L.U., people of other religions, or people of no religion.
What usually happens is that someone will complain about a teacher using the holidays to promote a religious view, the people of that religious view screaming bloody murder about “persecution” in the local media, and the local media will invariably write another story about a group of people wanting to banish Christmas.
Now if you have specific examples that we could talk about, I would be interested. Otherwise, we of other beliefs have enough to deal with without the further spreading of our “agenda”.
Somewhere along the way, and I’m not sure exactly where, David elaborated that his kid had to make a Santa hat, and a paper ornament, and something else; all things which IMO as a Christian are secular and reflect the cultural celebration of Christmas, not religious and not reflecting a celebration of the Nativity.
I’ve asked David a couple of times the question that I pose in this thread, and have yet to have it answered. I’m interested in other people’s answers, though.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I believe that symbols and rituals associated with a religious holiday hold only the meaning you give them. For me, wreaths, evergreen trees, Santa Claus, snowpeople, etc., signify a time of year and an event that I enjoy. And what I enjoy is not the religious aspects of Christmas, but the secular ones - the decorations, colors, lights, sounds, the satisfaction of giving to others and of spending time with the people I love and care about.
The same is true for Halloween. Although it is historically a religious holiday, I’ve never given it any religious significance. To me, its about having fun, dressing up, maintaining a link to my childhood. I’ve mever really considered the religious basis of Valentine’s Day. I only nominally recognize the religious connections of Thanksgiving. Yeah, I know it’s suppose to be a day of giving thanks to the Supreme Being, but for me it’s always been an opportunity to spend time with my family.
So to answer your question, I would have no problem with my child participating in any of these activities because I’m secure enough in my beliefs to give them the importance I want them to have.
I am not a parent (thank God, I’m 21!), but I have to say that Christmas celebrations in school would make me very uncomfortable. My parents raised me completely atheistically (and by that I mean that there was no discussion of religion, EVER) but we nominally celebrate(d) Christmas and Easter in a secular manner because my mother was raised Catholic and enjoys the holidays as nice family times and such. That’s cool, but I plan to raise my hypothetical children Jewish, and this is really the toughest time of year for non-Christians. All the commercials, parties, presents, it’s tough to say little things like, “Well, I don’t want to go to my friend’s party because there will be green and red decorations.”
Now that I really think about it, I have no idea what I will do, short of moving to Israel. (And as much as I love Israel, I don’t really want to spend the rest of my life there.)
~Kyla
“You couldn’t fool your mother on the foolingest day of your life if you had an electrified fooling machine.”
IMHO there seems to be a general problem (well, one among many) telling the difference between and dealing with: culture rather than religion and religion rather than science on this board.
And before I really hop onto a soap box, I’m going to take my religion and go get more coffee.
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
I appreciate the input from everyone who post here, because I think it’s important to try to understand everybody else’s feelings on the issue.
I note that David B., who started this whole thing, has publicly stated that he will not answer my question. (See the third page of the “Christmas in the Schools” thread.)
Hmmmm Melin, quite frankly you CAN’T take the Christianity out of Christmas (though God knows ((S)He really does!) we’ve tried!).
Dialogue:
Little Non-christian Boy: Why are we celebrating?
Teacher: This is Christmas.
LNB: What is Christmas?
Teacher: It’s when Santa comes and leaves presents under the tree for you.
LNB: Why would he do THAT?
Teacher: Because you were good this year.
LNB: No I wasn’t. 'Sides, why does he care?
Teacher: Because he wants to reward you for being good.
LNB: Why now? Why not back in Summer when I coulda used some new stuff?
Teacher: Because it’s Christmas NOW.
LNB: Why is it called Christmas? Why now?
Teacher: Wouldn’t you like a nice slice of fruitcake?
Christmas (the Mass of Christ) is a religious holiday that has non-religious overtones (as is also true of Easter with the stupid long-eared rodent who leaves eggs). As a Christian it may seem that the non-religious parts can be separated, but in reality they CAN’T for the reason noted above. I don’t condone David’s tone or approach in the other thread, but anyone who is raised in a Christian context simply won’t ever understand the impact that celebrating our Holy days has on those not from our context.
Now if you want to move Santa and the toys to, say, June 25 so the kids have something to play with in the summer, maybe it might work…
DSYoung, you may or may not be correct about that. Somebody else started a thread titled “non-Christian Christmas” to discuss what, if any, aspect of the holiday might be non-Christian.
But the point of my question here, and to David in the other thread, is broader. If David’s real concern is the first amendment issue of separation of church and state (as opposed to merely anti-Christian bigotry), then it’s a legitimate inquiry as to whether he opposes ANY symbols associated with ANY holiday that has religious origins or involvement.
If he doesn’t, he’s a hypocrite. But he won’t answer the question, because I’ve been a “stereotypical lawyer” – apparently by repeating the question and requesting an answer, then pointing out when he refuses to answer it.
I thought he did answer that–he didn’t want any, but that was unrealistic, so he would rather they taught about all religious holidays, rather than giving primacy to Christian ones.
“…Mithras the Sun-God
He saved the world from Night,
And his immolation
Also brought salvation
To the men who sought the Light…” Happy Mithrasmas, all!
I can’t tell you how loudly I would complain to my daughters’ principal AND the school board should they even * try * and remove Christ from the school. That includes celebrating Christmas and Easter.
Of course, I send my children to parochial school…
In all seriousness, it seems to me that there is an appropriate way to deal with this subject, and it has not, so far as I can tell, been presented in any reasonable way on this board.
Historically, this country was founded by a variety of people, the vast majority of whom were Christian in practice, and who espoused religious freedom, at least for themselves – and, in the longer run, for those who disagreed with them. Admixed with this group were a moderate-sized minority of deists, agnostics, and pragmatic atheists. There has been for most of Anglo-America’s existence a small but notable presence of practicing Jews.
To present to schoolchildren in manners appropriate to their age that the majority of their fellow Americans celebrate this particular day for the following reason, without getting into any faith question, seems to me to be eminently logical. I cannot see David getting bent out of shape by a kindly teacher explaining to his kid that for really complex reasons a lot of people celebrate 12/25 as the birthday of a baby who grew up to be an important person a long time ago. (Note that the same explanation would cover 2/12 and 2/22.) If the K.T. went beyond that to why he was famous, (s)he would be treading on thin ice. But to the point I’ve defined it’s a simple explanation of a culturally accepted event, adjusted for the age of the child in question. (David’s kid is a preschooler, IIRC; the same, ajdusted, would apply for someone else’s 7-year-old or 11-year-old, with a bit of background on when and what some people see as the significance given in the last case.) Do not bring religion into the public schools, certainly, or into a non-religious private school setting. However, the facts, properly presented, are not inappropriate.
