And the inability to discern between “believing women are equal to men” and “believing men are bad” is stupid, but no use trying to tell that to stupid people.
You don’t actually know anything about feminism, do you? Or black pride, for that matter. Hell, the only reason White Pride is racist is because racists took the name and ruined it.
It’ll be great when we can treat each human as a unique individual. We’re not there yet, though.
[QUOTE=MegaBee;14104699}]
It’ll be great when we can treat each human as a unique individual. We’re not there yet, though.
[/QUOTE]
When?
We can do it now. We will, of course fail, from time to time, both individually, and as a total population. That doesn’t mean we cannot attempt to do so.
You can change your own racism, your own sexism, your own particularism. Changing someone else is a different thing entirely.
Tris
Blah blah be the change yadda yadda.
All good, except all those someone elses actually exist, and we need to share the world with them.
A world without politics would be lovely, but it will never, ever exist and as such neither will the need for isms to advance the interest of equality.
No, we can’t do it now. When society treats peopel equally regardless of race, religion, gender, or sexual preference, then we can do it. Society needs to be changed, and naive optimism isn’t going to do it.
I suppose I could try to organize an individualism, and try to convince everyone to agree . . . oh, wait, that isn’t individualism.
I can’t make other people do anything. I especially cannot make other people believe anything. The only philosophical power I have is to live according to my own beliefs, and perhaps be true enough to those beliefs that some other person will find those beliefs to be worthy of emulation.
But power is not my desire. Leading is not my desire. I simply do not accept that isms are inherently necessary to the betterment of the human experience. Being good is a good idea. Making other people be good is outside of my competence.
Treating every soul I meet as if that soul were living embodiement of all the human race is not accomplished by policy. It’s personal, every single time. And it’s hard to do. Mostly, it takes a whole lot more effort, and attention than just having party line to follow.
And, I must report a generally low ratio of success to failure from my personal experiece. That doesn’t mean I think I should give up on it. Changing the world requires changing what is in my reach as a first step. Still workin’ on it.
Tris
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
You can change your own racism, your own sexism, your own particularism. Changing someone else is a different thing entirely.
[/QUOTE]
OK, sure. Physician, heal thyself. But if changing someone else is the objective, what then? MLK was a huge racist, the way you’re using the term. So should he have kind of chilled out and thought in his head about how he didn’t think white people were inferior to blacks? Or should he have fucked shit up, because shit was fucked up?
It’s funny how that precise moment when your own “team” is on the top of the heap but looks like it might not be forever, that’s the time to call for strictly enforced equal treatment. That’s when it isn’t about teams anymore. If you’re the USA in the 70s, it’s time for anti-proliferation of nuclear weapons. If you’re a white person during Reconstruction, it’s time to call for color-blindness in the law – no laws specifically to protect black people. If you’re a social conservative right now, it’s time to freeze the definition of marriage and “equally” enforce that everywhere. And if you’re a dude enjoying the benefits of a society that generally takes men more seriously than women, then feminism is just sexism, and when will we learn?!
And, you know, by telling some thousands of people on the internet that feminism is sexism, you are advocating. You’re trying to lead, and change people’s minds, and I think it’s fair to read what you’re saying as an attempt to make other people do something. This is a public discussion, and this is what you’re talking about. And that’s how you got these responses.
Let me guess… white dude?
I didn’t want to say it, but that’s my guess.
Missed the edit.
Um… it’s entirely possible to treat each individual person with respect AND work towards educating other people to treat each individual person with respect. Don’t be such an irresponsible lazy fuck all your life.
A low ratio of success from doing nothing more demanding than behaving like a decent human being? Shocking. Seriously dude, you’re not changing the world, you’re just not being an utter dick. No cookie for you.
Perhaps cynical optimism could work.
I cannot wait for the world to become enlightened. By the way, most folks are not all that much in agreement about what exact opinions are enlightened.
They have a bunch of philospical explanations for why they are right, and you and I are both wrong. It seems to me that the number of such philosiphical points of view is becoming larger.
I don’t want to fight that fight. I don’t believe nine billion people are going to ever agree about anything. And I am not going to try to convince them. I am going to “Become the change I wish to see in the world.” Or, more likely, I am going to fall short of the attempt to be that person. I will be responsible for the outcome of my life, in either case. And you will, as well. And I will not find fault for your failure, or begrudge your success.
But I don’t want to join your club, although I will probably read your pamphlet.
Tris
You’re already in the best club: the Privilege Club. Enjoy the many benefits!
Yes, I am white, and male. Also middle class, and have a high school education. I work for the government. All that can easily be the basis for an entire opinion of my self, my life.
I still think that feminism is sexism. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think sexual discrimination is a terrible thing. That means I think that judgement of people in groups is a practice I reject. I don’t make hiring decisions, I don’t make firing decisions. But, I have made decisions based on my own prejudices over and over in my life. But it is not society, or social attitudes that are to blame for those decisions. I am to blame for them. Me. Not my schools, my church, or my political party. I made those bigoted choices.
And I choose now to change those choices. And I fail to do so according to my own criteria. And I try again. Not because I believe in feminist values. Because I believe judgement by association is wrong. I do it a lot. Pisses me off, too. But, I don’t need to be taught a new set of guidelines, I need to hold myself responsibile for the values I already have.
Tris
I happen to find that takes enough effort that advising others is a priority I don’t get to.
And that’s still as dumb as the first time you said it.
So if you see one group of people beating another group of people with clubs, you refrain from judging either group? How noble of you.
Just so you know, I object to your “philosophy” more because of it’s laziness and abdication of responsibility than because of it’s stupidity.
People are engaging in that practice. Do you want them to stop?
Yes, and I am attempting to stop one of them. It turns out to be harder than I expected.
[Quote=DianaG]
So if you see one group of people beating another group of people with clubs, you refrain from judging either group? How noble of you.
[/quote]
My judgement is not the extent of what I require of myself in your hypothetical. My action is what I expect and require of myself.
Tris
So you see a group of people being beaten and you do nothing. Not better.
I specifically said that I required action of myself. While I understand you believe you know what I think, you are incorrect, and should at least read what I have actually said.
Tris
I did read what you wrote. Apparently your idea of action would be to treat each of the people being beaten with great courtesy and respect, while abdicating all responsibility for stopping the beating, since it’s not within your power to change other people’s behavior.
I am not sure why that is apparent to you. It was a hypothetical, with extreme, but unspecified details of gross violations of the law, and involved a number of people identified only as armed perpetrator, and unarmed victims. I don’t even pretend to know exactly what I would do, although dialing 911 is an obvious first step. Calling on uninvolved bystanders to aid the injured, and possibly attempting to dissuade the attackers from further violence might be a viable choice, but the information I have doesn’t really tell me if that would do any good. Committing violence of my own in defense of innocent victims is a very big decision, but might be the only choice. Attracting the attention and possible retribution of the perpetrators seems unlikely to be useful, but might be the only viable way of avoiding some ongoing horror.
I don’t know what I would do. Even in the event of actual real world exposure to mob violence I am not sure what I would do. I might run away. I deplore that possibility, but cannot know with certainty that I would have the courage to die for unknown strangers. I believe that I should, but I do not presume to know my own measure quite well enough to state that I would.
One thing I am sure of, if the groups were divided into blacks, vs. whites, or men vs. women, it doesn’t factor into my decision. I find the distinction of attacker and victim of attack sufficient for choosing sides. The statistical reality of the world I live in makes it highly unlikely that a group of white women are out here in the street beating up a bunch of unarmed black men, but if they are, my reaction would be the same. Call 911. The rest is hard to say, with any honesty.
Tris