Birds and hot peppers

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
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Dear Master,

I’m confused. In one of your priceless tomes, I remember some guy’s question from long ago, asking whether his was a great idea to swallow an entire bottle of Tabasco for a bet. You properly chastised him for his youthful thoughtlessness, (“such a stupid stunt” were, I believe, your exact words), saying that the large amounts of capsaicin swallowed would cause severe and extensive burns to his oral and esophageal mucosal surfaces. But now in this recent column (“Are birds immune to hot pepper”, (11-22-2000), an invited scholar explains that the burning sensation is merely due to stimulation of nerve endings, not to any mucosal damage at all. And that birds swallow large amounts without any untoward effects. So if this is true, the aforementioned guy would have hurt, but he wouldn’t have been that badly damaged. And, more significantly and ominously, if this is true, doesn’t it mean that you, Cecil, err…you might have been, hum… how shall I say…, (takes deep breath),
…WRONG ???
Please say it isn’t so, because if it is, it means that my entire system of values, and indeed my whole concept of order in the Universe, will be hopelessly shattered for ever and ever.

Jean-Martin Lapointe
Montreal, Canada

2

[Morning, Arnold…no, no, don’t get up…

Hi there, Joe Blow (or should I say Monsieur Le Blow)! I’m just stopping by to pick a couple nits with you. Arnold will presumably be along in a little while to move this thread, after he finishes his breakfast.

A. That’s a Mailbag article you’re referring to.

B. So this thread is in the wrong forum. :eek:

C. Here’s a link to it. http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mchili.html

D. Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board! It’s been awful quiet around here for a while. Why, it’s been a week at least since we had a “Cecil is wrong” thread. See ya around.

[*Arnold, are you gonna eat that bacon…say, thanks! :slight_smile: *]

3

Shoo Goose, shoo! Mind your own beeswax!

In case you didn’t notice, M. joblo is in fact commenting on one of Cecil’s columns. He appears to be more familiar with the canonical works than you do. He is referring to a column published in The Straight Dope itself, page 280 to be exact. Unfortunately some of these Old Testament works apparently have not yet made it into the on-line archive (at least, a search for “Tabasco” yielded nothing.)

As the person who wrote the Mailbag article, M. blo’s question was forwarded to me, and I advised him that I thought it might be posted under either CCC or CSRMA. Since he has the temerity to dispute the Master himself, I believe this is the appropriate place for it. His question is more about Cecil’s column than my own. Of course, I will defer to the judgement of the honorable Mr. Winkelried, once he finishes breakfast.

I will be back shortly to answer the question on the Master’s behalf.

Anyway, thanks, Goose, for the link to my column.

George Angehr

4

Welcome to the SDMB, and thank you for posting your comment.
Please include a mention of where you found Cecil Adams’ column.

The column can be found on page 280 of Cecil Adams’ book «The Straight Dope», as our good friend Colibri mentioned.

moderator, «Comments on Cecil’s Columns»

5

Thanks for the assist Duck Duck Goose! I probably would have made the same mistake you did if our friend Colibri hadn’t given us The Straight Dope.

6

I’m back from a scan of the Med Journals.

To quote the original question posed to Cecil as published in The Straight Dope:

Some people at work have offered me $10 to drink a two-ounce bottle of Tabasco sauce. Now I am having second thoughts. Is it dangerous, other than a few minutes of discomfort? . . ."

To which Cecil answered in part:

I certainly hope you like Gatorade and cough syrup, because that’s what you’re going to be living on for a week after you try this stupid stunt. The vegetable oils in Tabasco are fairly potent skin irritants. . . . At best your throat would hurt like hell for the rest of the evening; at worst you could end up with a mild chemical-type burn down the length of your esophagus. Admittedly the clinical literature on this topic is not as voluminous as one might like. . . ."

Cecil goes on to describe his efforts to make up for this deficiency by forcing a quart of Tabasco down one of the associate editors at SD HQ, unfortunately for science without success.

The frontiers of Tabasco research have advanced mightily since 1984, when The Straight Dope was published. As it turns out, the Master was not really incorrect, although the answer was perhaps a bit imprecise and the pain would probably not go on for a week.

The key receptor molecule, known as VR1 (from vanilloid receptor) can be triggered by damaging heat (over about 110 degrees F), acid (free protons), tissue inflammation, or capsaicin. The VR1 molecule naturally occurs only in the cell membranes of certain pain receptors (nociceptors), not ordinary cells. What happens is that channels are opened in the cell membrane which allow sodium and calcium ions to rush in, triggering nerve impulses that are perceived as pain. While heat and acid will also damage cells that are not pain receptors, capsaicin evidently will not.

However, that is not to say that there is no physical damage done by capsaicin. Too much calcium rushing in will kill the receptor cell. It seems to me that such cell death could itself provoke damage and inflammation in nearby tissues, but I have not yet found an article making a definite statement about this. This killing of receptor cells could in fact be described as “a mild chemical-type burn,” although a true chemical burn would also kill non-receptor cells.

This said, large doses of capsaicin that are insufficient to actually kill the receptor cell result in its eventual desensitization. Chili addicts know they can gradually withstand hotter and hotter dishes over time. And capsaicin preparations are actually used to reduce pain and inflammation due to this desensitizing effect, probably in conjunction with the production of endorphins.

I’m still looking into this and may have more later. In the meantime, here’s a fairly detailed if technical article on the receptor molecule:

www.nap.edu/books/0309065488/html/7658.html

7

It’s just that I hate it when folks pop up out of a trapdoor shouting, “Cecil is wrong!” Makes me all sweaty. Makes me wanna go home and start cleanin’ my guns, ya know?

8

Yes, Goose, I empathize with your feelings. Most challenges to Cecil are in fact pretty misinformed. However, joblo in this case has a point. (He is also to be commended for recalling a column from so long ago, as well as getting Cecil’s phrasing more-or-less correct.) Pepper sprays are in fact used by police departments and against grizzly bears precisely because they do little if any actual tissue damage (in contrast to spraying the target with acid or a flamethrower, say).

I personally would not accuse Cecil of being wrong (unless I had him dead to rights). I would attribute any perceived inaccuracies in the answer to typical Cecilian (Ceciloid? Cecilistic?) hyperbole.

BTW, since capsaicin is not water soluble, the reference to Gatorade might also be construed as inappropriate. However, insofar as it might help restore electrolytes to injured receptor cells, maybe it wouldn’t be a bad idea. Later in the answer Cecil recommends drinking lots of milk, which is actually the preferred remedy. Capsaicin, being a lipid (fat) is soluble in fat-containing liquids such as whole milk. You could also try gargling with olive oil. But an effort to alleviate a chili burn with large quantities of water or beer won’t work too well.

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[[Later in the answer Cecil recommends drinking lots of milk, which is actually the preferred remedy. Capsaicin, being a lipid (fat) is soluble in fat-containing liquids such as whole milk. You could also try gargling with olive oil. But an effort to alleviate a chili burn with large quantities of water or beer won’t work too well.]]

Here in New Mexico (where we spell it “chile”), if any remedy is needed, most people go for tortillas, sopaipillas or bread.

10

Lassi is what you get in Indian joints for cooling the fires. Made of yoghourt, water, salt and rosewater it does the job well.

11

Maybe that’s what they use, but I don’t see why this would work any better than any other food, unless you heavily buttered the bread or used a really greasy fried bread. And that might give you heartburn.

I believe the earliest spellings in English are “chillie” and “chilli” (OED). In Spanish it’s usually called “aji,” which I believe is the name Columbus encountered.

That should work, as long as the yogurt contains fat.

12

[[In Spanish it’s usually called “aji,” which I believe is the name Columbus encountered.]]

If Columbus encountered it, it must not originally be Spanish (is “ajo” – garlic – from the same source?).

Aqui en Nuevo Mexico, en espanol se llama “chile.”

13

Knowing a few things about cells, tissues, and inflammation, I must respectfully disagree with this usage of “chemical burn”. I don’t believe death of specific cells can qualify as a chemical burn, even a mild one, since as you mention a burn is something that affect all cells touched by the irritant. A “mild” burn is a burn that doesn’t go deep, but still all the superficial cells are damaged. I don’t believe that death of single pain receptor cells, which are a very minor component of oral epithelium in terms of numbers (they are practically invisible on routine microscopy) would induce a significant inflammatory reaction. Further, Cecil says that the burns would occur “down the esophagus”, where I doubt that there are such receptor cells to capsacin.

However, I must admit that my memory overstated Cecil’s response somewhat; I thought I remembered him warning of severe chemical burns, the kind that would send one to an emergency ward. So I’ll grant you that Cecil’s column, while not terribly accurate, wasn’t wrong. This admission should prevent further agitations of the Tabasco bottle lodged deep up 'Duck duck goose’s arse.
(edited to fix formatting)

[Edited by Arnold Winkelried on 12-07-2000 at 11:48 AM]

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OK, OK, joblo, I admit I was speculating about how much inflammation might be caused. I was merely trying to cover Cecil’s ass/arse for him, as well as protect poor Duck Duck Goose from a crisis of faith, not to mention homicide charges. The tissue damage might be minor, but there could be some. As to what Cecil actually meant to convey by “mild chemical-type burn” we can only guess, as he has chosen not to reveal himself here. Regarding your memory of the article, Cecil concludes by saying:

Rather than the emergency room, Cecil implied the morgue was the likely destination. But this is clearly just Cecilistic bombast.

Anyway, I think we can agree to call this one a draw. Cecil’s not completely wrong, but he perhaps overstates the case.

But joblo, I’m now wondering how much someone’s offering you to drink a bottle of Tabasco Sauce? And before you go on further provoking the easily excitable DDG, have you ever been kicked in the ass/arse with duckbill slippers?

Aji I believe is an Arawak word. I doubt it has anything to do with ajo and garlic, since that’s an Old World crop. Chili/chile is derived from a Nahuatl (Aztec/Mexican) word which I have seen rendered variously as chilli and chilatl. Yes, certainly Spanish also uses the word chile, but I’m not sure how widespread the usage is outside of Mexico and the U.S. Southwest. Here in Panama it’s always called aji (accent on the “i”). Most English dictionarys I have seen give chili as the primary form, with chile and sometimes chilli as variants. (The OED perversely says chilli and, gads, chilly.) And BTW chile has nothing to do with the country Chile, although the confusion has been longstanding.

15

New Mexico magazine just had an article about this spelling battle – chile vs chili. I meant to send it to you, Colibri, but lost it. Anyway, there are a variety of peppers grown in Mexico, but most of your basic mild to medium-hot green chiles are and probably have always mostly been grown in the region that is now New Mexico. Since the natives here call the fruit “chile,” I think that’s the best spelling to use. Call me ethnocentric. In New Mexico, “chili” refers to that slop Texans eat, containing kidney beans, hamburger, tomato sauce, etc.

16

A few websites to back me up here. Most of em say “chile” is the plant or fruit and “chili” is the dish you make from the chiles.

http://www.fix.net/~chiligazette/chillies.html http://www.sammcgees.com/chili/spelling.html http://www.fiery-foods.com/dave/quest.html#Chile (Or Is That Chili?) http://www.zianet.com/snm/chile.htm http://lib.nmsu.edu/databases/sunnews/years/1997/feb/258.html http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/PUBS/COLUMNGW/grchile.htm http://www.goodcooking.com/quest5.htm http://www.chileseeds.co.uk/about_chiles1.htm http://www.culinarycafe.com/Ingredient_Glossary-c.html http://members.tripod.lycos.nl/mexicancomida/Chiles/chiles.html http://www.ivu.org/recipes/mexican2/salsa-j.html http://world.std.com/~wat/recipes/C96GH.html http://www.dwsmith.demon.co.uk/mexican/

17

Fine Jill, but personally I prefer dictionaries and encyclopedias to websites as authoritative sources on usage. Print sources from Webster’s to the Encyclopedia Britannica all use chili for the plant, and don’t even mention the dish. In any case, I would be inclined to use chili for the plant because 1) it’s evidently closer to the original Nahuatl, regardless of the form Spanish now uses; 2) it avoids the confusion with Chile; 3) who needs additional complexity of usage? Call the plant and the dish by the same name and be done with it. The distinction seems to me to be just a regional idiosyncracy.

“A few websites”! It must be another slow day at work.

18

[[The distinction seems to me to be just a regional idiosyncracy.]]

Exactamente. I was demonstrating that people in New Mexico, chile capital of the US, feel strongly about this issue. For the purposes of your article it probably isn’t that important. As far as a slow day at work, you’re spending a lot of time online today too, birdman!

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ps – yes, they are just “websites,” but you’ll find articles from respected sources in there as well as a discussion about the Associated Press possibly changing the official spelling to “chile.” I mean, I’d paste actual articles in here if I could…

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I’m sure that this sentence was an oversight on the part of joblo39. In this forum we try to refrain from personal attacks.

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