Didn’t we do this exercise already three months ago?
Give a brief synopsis of your views on the invasion of Iraq
My views currently is that invasion of Iraq was inevitable, given the unpredictability of Saddam and the instable effects he has with that region. The more radical countries of the Middle East (Iraq, Iran, Syria) are constantly creating turmoil and upheaval on an issue that should be negotiated not fought over. The more moderate countries are in spirit in league with the radicals but wont say so openly. Something has to be done to move the balance of power away from Arab extremists like Saddam and Assad. The US should lessen the popularity and mystique of these people and their terrorist de jour. Removing Saddam was a significant step towards stability in the middle east.
Enter the Bizzaro-World Transmogrifier
ZAP
sizzzle
Bzzzzt!!
Oh gee! War is BAD! no more war! we must not sacrifice our young men for oil! Bush is bad!
SLAP!!
DAMN! was there a gay setting on that transmorgfying whatsis??! Yuck!
Alright, the war on Iraq is short sighted. This is like mounting the D-day invasion with just one army and half the navy. The opportunity was there but fumbling it on the way to the goal is just as bad as not having it. The war on terrorism is a media event, it must be fought in the hearts and minds of the people who count here, which are the Arabs! Propaganda is the key and followup and integrity are the only tools that can convince ignorant starving hope-starved peoples that what you say means anything. It is not enuf to win the battles, you must convince the people. Without it, Iraq would just be another Lebanon waiting for another Saddam to take root and grow under our nose.
Enter the Bizzaro-World Transmogrifier
sizzzle
ZAP
Bzzzzt!!
How much evidence? how about one? Most intelligences sources including the CIA confirm that Osama hates Saddam and his politics. It would be far easier to find a link between Bill Clinton and GW Bush in the 2000 elections. Osama is an international terrorist with delusions of being Grand Caliph of all the world while Saddam is a local thug. He just wants Iraq and all his surrounding enemies dead.
Defying the UN is not a prelude nor a pre-context to war. If the UN is impotent, then lets form a stronger international body. The US has no mandate or moral authority to wage war. Which is what we are doing. We are waging war. We struck first and without provocation. If we are to be pre-emptive in our military campaigns lets first make sure everyone has enuf information to decide on the issues correctly or if lacking that “for security reasons” set a timetable and agenda to inform the US public at a later time when it will not be of any danger to the troops or information sources.
Lets not radically change the world based on half truths and conjecture then blissfully proceed based on the idea that once done it cannot be undone. If the US is the sole superpower, there must be laws, checks and balances to insure that the US does not abuse its superpower status.
Well then, I must be gay. The signs are all there:
- I think war is a bad thing. Go figure.
- Sacrificing young people in there twenties is too “macho” for me.
Oh, and - I don’t think that gay people are “Yucky”
Transmogrified anti-Blowero sez:
It’s not just about Osama; it’s about sending a clear message to the terrorists that the U.S. is not to be trifled with. Since Saddam needed to be taken out anyway, what better way to send the message? Those terrorists are going to think twice next time they strap a bomb to themselves and take out innocent people.
What has the UN done for us lately? Why should we waste energy trying to strengthen international law, when we can accomplish our goals without anyone’s help? We are the most powerful nation on Earth; nobody can touch us. And if they try, retribution must be swift and decisive. Do you think the terrorists care about international law? All they understand is force, and that’s what we have to give them.
No, the President is in charge of safeguarding our national security. He must be unencumbered to do so. He doesn’t need a bunch of namby-pamby whiners and second-guessers demanding evidence all the time. Let him do his job.
We may have had the luxury of thinking so before 9/11, but things are different now.
Ugh, I feel so…dirty.
- Persons -in whatever position they are- who declare openly to be ready to give orders to kill other persons - whoever they are - are to be considered in every case as being dangerous criminals, ready to start murdering any moment. Such people should be locked away safely. (Not to mention the claim to be “inspired by God to clear the world from Evil”).
- Persons and nations - after bringing forward the most incredible “evidence” to try to let their fanaticism pass for absolutely normal behaviour - undertaking actions in order to make these threats come true, invading and occupying for this a sovereign nation and causing all the disasters this invasion brought and brings to the population, are violating the international law, are war criminals and should be put on trial for such.
- Hello Sharon, this is Bush calling. What else do you want me to do?
- Hello Iraqbiscuits, this is Bush calling…(Bush to Rumsfeld: Who the hell are those people again? Rumsfeld: The collateral damage survivors we just overwhelmed with our Shock and Awe strategy. And it is Iraqis, Mr. President…. Bush back to phone) Hello again damn Iraqisis: So sorry, but we are there and we stay there, to free your oi… (cough)… you. Shut up or be blown up. You ain’t seen nothing yet.
5.In addition and to close this incomplete explanation of my position:
The funny thing is that the Americans have published it themselves that they plotted and planned this Iraq scenario for such a very long time (see PNAC and go even further back in time). The question whether Mr. Bush was fully aware of it even before being placed in office through banana republic elections (I like that quote of Fidel Castro very much, it is very amusing especially because it was very to the point) and thus is fully responsible from the beginning, or was used as a willing puppet by the PNAC’ers and got absorbed by it, is an open question. He showed himself to be a good student in any case. As for Mr. Blair: He is rightfully seen as the hand licking pup of the Americans (Let’s refrain of starting to comment on the other collaborators).
- Saddam Hussein is the worst criminal dangerous madman one can think of. Someone had to take action to free the world of this threat and the Iraqis of this mass murderer. Who else but the president and governemtn of the USA and the US army would ever been able to do just that.
- The undeniable fact that Hussein used chemical weapons in the war against Iraq and on his own population, the presence of these weapons, the information about the intention to develop nuclear weapons, the oppression of the Iraqis by this tyrannical regime were known worldwide. Nobody seemed to care that the sanctions to stop this tyrant weren’t helping at all. Until the wake up call of 9/11. This was the sign that a tyrant like Hussein couldn’t be ignored any longer. His regime and its intentions formed a direct threat to the national security of the USA and the US interests in the whole region at that.
- The regime of Iraq formed a direct threat for the safety of Israel, which deserves our protection and support at all times.
- The Iraqis are freed of an oppressive and cruel regime and ready to embrace a chosen democratic government. This is the most important achievement of the US/UK intervention.
- The Project Of a New American Century rightfully underlines the importance of a strong USA for the whole world. As the only superpower on this globe the USA needs to secure its interests and dominance world wide. The world can only become a better place under the banner of the Pax Americana. The fact that PNAC thought about the threat formed by a regime like that of Hussein while the world stood by and did nothing to stop this madman, gives the more credit to their to their suggestions and warnings.
Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh A.
you misunderstand. Me being gay is yucky…
Enter the Bizzaro-World Transmogrifier
sizzzle ZAP Bzzzzt!! OW! STOP THAT! Bzzt-BZZZT! AAAIIIEEE!!
And what message would occupying a sovereign nation be? These people have been subjugated for decades, generations have grown up not knowing any better. American way of life would alien to these people and terrorists are their heroes. We are the bad guys, going into Iraq just plays into the “America is Evil” role. When are people ever going to learn that terrorists dont give a damn about innocents, being caught OR dying. Invading Iraq, considered their hometown champions, just adds fuel to the wildfire of hatred being spread by these terrorists.
The UN isnt about serving the needs of the United States. They are an international body created to maintain peace and world order. Peace means no war. Displays of power like Iraq feeds the idea that America is too powerful and only a matter of time before it goes berserk. Are we to wipe out terrorist by using the exact same methods they use under the simplistic and ignorant notion that it is the only thing they know? Are we to prejudge them so stupid and barbaric that negotiations and compromise are excluded from being used? Terrorists might not recognize international law but the most powerful nation on earth should and must do so.
The presidents job IS to safeguard our national security and our interest abroad, but not just for his term in office, or his generation but for all americans that come after him. His job is not just to create stop-gap measures and quick fixes. He must safeguard national security for all time. It must be done for the long run, so that the next president doesnt have to undo what shortsighted plans he lays. Let not our children our granchildren pay for the consequences we create today.
I know the feeling…
I supported the war. I felt Saddam Hussein’s regime should have been overthrown for crimes against humanity. At the time, I thought it was likely that Iraq was attempted to develop WMD and sponsering terrorism, but I’ll concede the evidence now seems to indicate this isn’t true. I felt the US would win the war quickly, but there was a strong possibility the current administration might mishandle the post-war settlement.
Okay, let’s try to reconcile the opposite of all of the above.
I oppose the war. Other countries, including the United States, should not declare war on a sovereign nation because they don’t like its domestic politics. There isn’t conclusive proof that Iraq is developing WMD and even if they are, other countries have built similar weapon systems without being attacked. Plus a war with Iraq would last for years and cause numerous American casualties. The current administration should concentrate on continuing their successful program of peacefully helping the development of nations that wish to accept American aid and hope that this will inspire Iraq to change the policies we disagree with.
I supported the war with the caveat that it could fail because of Bush. I never cared about WMDS. I still actually think that the war in Iraq can turn out to be a good thing.
The problem with invading Iraq is that if it did in fact have WMDs then invading it most likely put WMDs in the hands of terrorists who wont hesitate to use them.
SimonX, This is a brilliant idea!
And X~Slayer(ALE), a hearty well-done for being the first pro-war believer to really work at getting into the spirit of opposing the war. I’m impressed. Kudos also to Aldeberan; given how strongly you’ve made it clear you feel about this war, you made a really credible attempt at supporting it.
As for me, Oy!
In real life, I opposed the war bitterly. NOT because I felt that we should never go into Iraq; I felt that it was entirely possible that someday we would need to. But I felt (and feel) that our current effort there was entirely politically and economically motivated - that it had NOTHING to do with the reasons being offered up for our consumption, and EVERYTHING to do with the various Republican re-election efforts and oil economy. And one worse thing. I dont’ think Bush, or even his advisors, are totally evil people. But no one could have looked at this situation without seeing a highly increased risk for more terrorism. And while I don’t think the current administration would have deliberately sought out mechanisms for provoking terrorist attacks, the fact is, people rally around the president at such times - politically, it’s not a bad thing. This frightens me. Last but not least, I hate the fact that we basically told the entire rest of the world to eat shit and die - we were going to do what we damn well pleased.
Zap!
Oh god, this is hard!
Hmmn.
OK. Hussein was a BAD GUY. He brutally oppressed his own people, killed and tortured many, had the war with Iran, invaded Kuwait, et cetera. I’m not sure his own mother would have defended him. He may not have had any connection with ben Laden, but he sure as hell supported terrorism at both a state and an individual level. As such, he threatened the world at large, and the US and our only real ideological ally in the area, Israel.
We have the power to make it better. OK, maybe there are other dictators just as bad, but we had to start somewhere. Because of the oil, there is at least SOME chance that we can get some repayment back, plus the nation SHOULD be able to get on its feet because of its underground wealth, now that Hussein is out of the way. Think of this as a pilot project. Once we’ve been through it in a situation where at least some of the conditions are favorable, we’ll be better prepared to take on some REAL nasties, like North Korea. Plus, of course, this will bring some real stability to the region, and possibly lead to the long desired peace in the Middle East. Hussein may not have been much of a Muslim, but he detested Israel and certainly went out of his way to ensure that the militant Palestineans had resources. With this support gone and a strong American presence in the region, once a strong democratic government is established in Iraq and everyone there can see that Islam and democracy are not incompatible, we can perhaps make real strides in this area.
You’re right, blowero, I do feel dirty.
:smack: D’oh! I forgot the reason I actually thought we MIGHT have to go to war in Iraq eventually, and wondered whether it might not be a good idea now. (I mean in real life, without transmogrification).
It’s stupid to let a small problem become a big problem if you can stop it when it’s still small. Maybe Iraq couldn’t quite threaten us meaningfully yet. What, do we wait until they can hurt us badly and THEN go in? That’s crazy. You swat the fly before it becomes a cobra!
HAH!! Therein lies the weakness of SimonX’s transmogrifier. Bzzt down boy! … I am actually only a few degrees right of the fencepost when it comes to the Iraq war. Switching me to the opposite side of the fence means i would land only a few degrees left of the fence post. 
What put me on that side of the fence is the sheer irrationality of the boisterous group against the war. In finding ways to slap some sense into their silly little heads, I found the reasons for supporting the war was well… supportable. By passing thru the transmogrifier, I am posting the issues I would put up had I found myself on your side of the fence.
Enter the Bizzaro-World Transmogrifier
sizzzle ZAP Bzzzzt!! HAH! Im insulated now Splash! *HEY!!*Bzzzaaarkk! NYEEAAHH!!!
Having the power doesnt mean we have the right. Thats whats at issue here. The right to invade another country. Might does not make right. The US cant just be invading every 2 bit superpower wannabe just because we have the military power and the will to use it. This is how we, the US of America, cultivated terrorism. Historically, we force our national will on some podunck pisswater country, screw around with their way of life then, if the country is poor in resources, leave them with their own devices to barely survive, or if the country is rich, we hang around forever like we own the place. Since the national purpose seems to be to eradicate terrorism, we should devote our attentions and power towards what causes terrorism rather than fix the symptoms of terrorism.