Black coffee

It surprised me that after four years, the best argument anyone could come up with is, “Around these here parts…” This is after all the forum that has been fighting ignorance since 1973. Of course there is that parenthetical phrase–never mind.

So, I added some logic. I imagine that someone will come along asking this question, find this thread, read through it, find my response, and be grateful that someone included reason rather than reporting colloquial habits.

Read up. Where do you find actual reason?

Something I didn’t even mention: there are several songs called “Black Coffee.” The one by Ella Fitzgerald doesn’t go into how to whether or not you add sugar. There is an implication then that this explanation isn’t needed for the thought to be understood.

There is an article in Time magazine talking about green Tea and Black coffee having no calories. This surely indicates no sugar has been added.

I don’t believe “Black” is colloquial in any case. You could go anywhere in the country and find neighbors who disagree just as they disagree here. This would mean one of two things: that “Black” doesn’t mean anything at all, or that “Black” means nothing added.

For those who actually care to address reason, they will see my post and be happy to have found it. They can make an informed decision rather than hearing what they already knew–that people disagree.

Can’t find the “Edit” button for some reason.

I just want to add that there are some posts including reason to back their point of view. I recognize that.

Yes. The term is a “jargon” term, a specific technical term, like many in card-playing, sports, or, yes, cuisine. It’s like “over easy,” or “well done.” It doesn’t mean what it literally says: it’s a term that has evolved as a short-hand for a specific concept.

If some asshole hands me “black coffee” with sugar in it, he’s as stupid as someone who gives me a very pink steak and claiming it’s “well done” because he did it with most excellent skill.

That invites a fine degree of technical distinction! Is a “jargon” term a “colloquial” term? I’m not really sure where the difference lies between the two ideas.

I hope I did the quote right.

Jargon would be subject-specific terminology. Colloquial speech would be local specific.

I’m glad we agree on the other matter.

There’s a five minute window for editing.

I’m with Inner Stickler. It’s an incredibly stupid contribution to a zombie thread. Usage, not reason, determines the definition of words and phrases.

Oops, not exactly right. But no harm.

Cool; I’ll buy that.

Heh! Don’t get used to it! :wink: (This is a wonderfully contentious BBS. You can say, “Gee, it’s a lovely day today” and get a fight going! I’m not completely sure everyone here would agree that 2 + 2 = 4 – and that’s a matter of definition!) May you have many, many happy pie-fights here!)

Usage determines the definition of words only because we haven’t had a prescriptive dictionary since Webster’s 1828.

You’re that guy that mixes metaphors.

By what authority would a prescriptive dictionary make a claim about a word’s definition that goes against popular usage and what do they do when the population frustratingly refuses to accept their re-definition?

A dictionary only succeeds because the people have faith in it.
Lexicographers are charged with writing the dictionary. Lexicographers study at a university accredited to teach matters of English.
The authority lies somewhere in there I suppose.

A prescriptive dictionary would offer standardized spelling, and an account of definitions for pedagogical or reference purposes. If masses did not follow this standard, it would show up in writing (usage). The lexicographers would pour over new written works and add these new definitions describing them as colloquial, humerous, vulgar, slang, etc.

FYI, you can find many people with their own opinions on what a word means. If a word’s definition is based on usage, and a word is used in so many ways, then none of them are ever wrong, and there is really no reason to ask about any word’s actual definition. Any usage, even humorous, would be correct!

Guess what allows people to have faith in a dictionary? When the dictionary maps well to popular usage.

The best lexicographers study linguistics, not English and guess what linguistics has to say on the determination of a word’s meaning?

And if a colloquial or slangy word usage shows up enough in certain contexts, it becomes part of the dialects and registers that have prestige in those contexts. Dictionaries are a purely after-the-fact work.

All we have today is descriptive dictionaries, so they do map well to popular usage. My comment on this matter was that usage only shapes definitions because we no longer have prescriptive dictionaries. You then asked about the authority of a prescriptive dictionary. Now you are going back to descriptive dictionaries. I’ve already addressed that. We have descriptive dictionaries today, and they do map well, reactively, to usage.

Oops! I’ll buy that. I think they also study English to discuss linguistics in the context of whatever “rules” are in fact useful; however, in terms of linguistics, your comment, and your conclusion, you wanted me to guess what linguistics has to say on the determination of a word’s meaning.

Linguistics is not concerned with prescription, so read or talk to people and you are done.

When people ask about the meaning of a word, they are looking for an answer for a purpose. If “Bad” or “Super bad” can be used to mean “good” or “cool,” then we determine by context the meaning of the word. So…so what? It’s slang; but there is really no need to label it as slang unless it is scrubbed against some system of determining meaning. If a word means anything you choose it to mean, then there is no discussion to be had.

Now, sometimes, we need to know what a word means just so we can have a discussion. The etymology of the words imply and infer, (according to etymonline.com–for what that is worth), show these words as having separate and distinct meanings. Today, the fourth definition of infer is imply. There is now no way for me to state what I mean, or if looked at another way, no way for me to be wrong if I use one term instead of the other. This is certainly due to misuse. To confuse matters, if I say that you inferred something with a comment, would I possibly infer something from you comment also, or should I then say that I implied something from your inference?

Allowing the “living language” theory in this instance is not a productive change.

Purblind comes from “pure blind.” The term has since come to mean something less than pure blind. Words can change their meaning. Fine. The problem is that now, all that Latin you learned in high school is defenestrated. We can extrapolate that we will continue to lose the meaning behind prefixes, so we can no longer read a new word and know by such road signs as prefixes and suffixes, what the word means.

Sooner or later we have to ask, “What is the impetus behind a word’s change in meaning.” If it is slang, then cool. No biggy. Will you look at a single instance of a word’s change in meaning and conclude that we have only confused matters with no real benefit to the language? If not, we are back to my prior conclusion that there is no discussion. Anything is proper any time.

Then I would have to ask, "Why learn English in school? What “rules” are we learning? We can say whatever we want! Then you might say that we have to learn something to communicate at all…but we don’t really need to learn rules to communicate. We naturally learn language.

In Formal speech, we do find a set of people interested in prescriptive rules. These are the people who ask such questions for a reason. They want to speak to a more formal audience. It is understandable that an article from a law review going to publication would be more interested in Formal speech. The Formal audience is interested in reading and speaking Formal English…sometimes. If you are promoting descriptive English to these people, you are not addressing the issue, and you are not helping further the dialogue.

Here again, we are talking description and usage. This needs no discussion, but yes, today’s dictionaries are descriptive, and reactive. You had asked about prescriptive dictionaries, and now you are going back to descriptive dictionaries. I am aware that today’s dictionaries describe how the language is used.

Listen to songs and conversation. That’s usage. You may conjugate the verb “To Be” as “I be, you be, he be, she be, it be, we be, they be” and you would be “correct.” I here it from time to time. “I be goin’ to the sto.” OK. It’s correct in terms of usage no matter the audience. It simply doesn’t address rules of grammar, or the logic behind the rule, or the people who need to follow certain prescriptive rules, and why that need exists. By the same token, usage does not address logic behind the preservation of a definition, or the resistance to the acceptance of a new definition.

Are you claiming that the population uses “black” to mean “sugar but no cream” in a widespread fashion?

Ask the next waitress you happen to see…

ETA: anyway, the issue is largely moot, because most places give you the coffee and point you to a counter with containers of various kinds of creamer and numerous different kinds of sweetener.

When a server asks me if I want “black coffee”, I figure they either want to add cream or some sort of lightener to it or they’re asking me if I want them to leave room for me to add creamer.

I don’t see anything about coffee in the bit you quoted. A word’s meaning is determined by popular usage. A cabinet is synonymous with cupboard, but in a small section of New England, it can also mean a drink made with ice cream. If I were to go there and insist that they are wrong to call a milkshake a cabinet, I would be the one in the wrong, no matter how many dictionaries I could point to that do not define a cabinet as such. Likewise, going to a diner, say where black coffee is understood to be coffee sans creamer and that’s it, and insisting that they are wrong for asking if you also want sugar is also wrong. Naturally, in locations where black coffee means no cream or sugar, the inverse is true. This really is not a difficult concept.

And the earlier posts in this thread show anecdotally that there are indeed places where people hold that black coffee is merely coffee without cream.

Dalai, I’m not going to address your latest post point by point, but it’s a big pile of nonsense, however well-intentioned. If you care, here’s a quote from Samuel Johnson, called by many the Father of the Dictionary: “When we see men grow old and die at a certain time one after another, from century to century, we laugh at the elixir that promises to prolong life to a thousand years; and with equal justice may the lexicographer be derided, who being able to produce no example of a nation that has preserved their words and phrases from mutability, shall imagine that his dictionary can embalm his language, and secure it from corruption and decay, that it is in his power to change sublunary nature, and clear the world at once from folly, vanity, and affectation.”

If you’re interested, I can suggest a number of books on the subject of language change and the role and goals of Standard/prestige dialects.

And AAVE is not merely Standard English with mistakes. It’s a real dialect with an actual grammar and vocabulary and things can be phrased just as wrongly in it as in SE.

I’ve always known black coffee to be plain coffee straight from the pot. You have to say with sugar or with cream and sugar to get it that way.

Its been years, and years since anyone served me anything but black coffee anyway. Creme and sugar is always on the table to be added. Even McDonalds gives you black coffee and the extras in the bag.

I’ve never been to Starbucks. Do they serve coffee with cream and sugar? Or do you add it yourself?

I learned to like black coffee about twenty-five years ago. I got concerned how often my sugar bowl needed refilling. So I gradually weaned myself off the sugar in coffee. I’ll still occasionally add sugar if the coffee is old and rank. Sugar makes it drinkable. But fresh coffee I always want black.

(emphasis added)

Sorry, folks, but with this one I really can’t resist.

It’s pore (to read or study with attention and application), not pour.

And it’s spelled humorous (unless you meant humerus, referencing an arm bone, but I can’t make that make sense in context).

More pomp and circumstance to come, I’m sure.
Roddy

The Navy way:

Black and bitter: No additives
Black and sweet: Sweetener (sugar, Equal, saccharine, &c) only
Blonde and bitter: Whitener (milk, cream, “creamer,” &c) only
Blonde and sweet: Whitener and sweetener

They give it to you with neither, but ask if you want room.