Kimstu: The page never loaded for me. Is this from Robin Lakoff? It sounds very familiar.
I suggest reading The Language War by Lakoff, for an excellent explanation of AAVE and race-related language issues (the Anita Hill case, the OJ Simpson case, among others).
Well I have to disagree with that. and is one of the things why the emphasis on Ebonics seems so wierd. I’m using media as my base here, which I know isn’t perfect, but is a decent barometer. It is clearly favorable among white people to speak good clear english. On the average medical drama you don’t hear a lot of neurosurgeons who talk like Jeff Foxworthy. National news anchors all have such perfectly spoken languages you can’t figure out where thay are from. Among Asians, the sucessful lawyer speaks clear midwestern English, and the whore says things like ‘me ruve you rong time’. Cheech Marin was in cheap sterotypical roles , until suddenly he lost the majority of his accent, and was on serious network TV.
But on black shows, the guy who speaks perfect English is the joke. Carlton on the Fresh Prince, the rival boyfriend on the Jamie Fox show. All of the cool characters speak a fair amount of black english, and constantly make fun of the guy ‘acting white’. I never understood why, but it always seemed strange to me.
I know I say this every other debate, but…
Becomeing equal politically is different than becomeing the same culturally. We are all Americans (well all Americans are Americans, vut you get my point) but some of us identify than more than just “American”.
The experience of being an African-American or and Asian-American (or whatever) is often a little different than being a white American. For example, my mom told me Cinderella as a bedtime story, while my friend’s mom told her parts of the Ramayana. I am not saying it is always different, but it is sometimes different. There are xperiences that are unique to specific cultures in America that are different than the white norm. It is okay to identify with and celebrate (both the good and the bad) of whatever culture you understand. We cannot sit here and say “it’s all the same”, because it isn’t. Our fundamental humanity and political rights, are, of course the same. But there are cultural differences you can’t sweep under the carpet.
That said, standard English is just as different from AAVE as AAVE is from standard English. Why is whiteness the norm? We need to look at difference as differences. Not better ot worse, and not “different from white”. But different from each other.
To say “it’s all the same” is to deny the experiences and history of people. And it denies the fundamental institutionalized inequalities that still exist.
Always nice to see someone who likes Good Poetry.
I’m not sure I would go this far. We do need a standard English, which all should learn (and learn well). (Surely you are not proposing, for example, that court documents could be drafted in AAVE?)
However, when communicating informally, I see no reason to consider AAVE (or my own backwoods southern accent, or any dialect) less “valid” than any other.
I definately see the need for some sort of standard language for public and political use. And I do agree that standard English is the most conveiant norm, as it is spoken and understood by the most people. Theoretically, however, AAVE could serve the purpose just as well. Personally, I think that Esperanto, being a culturely and politically neutral language, would do a better job. But that is another story…
I am just looking at the way that we think of things. We think of “blackness” in terms of how it deviates from “whiteness”. Instead, I think we should see “blackness” and “whiteness” in terms of how they are mutually different and mutually the same. And then we can examine the realtionship between black and white on more neutral grounds.
I live in the ‘Deep south,’ and yes I have heard and cringed at the Southern dialect, but then, these people are not struggling for equal rights, equality all across the board and are still, in many places, fighting the civil war. I mean, where else is the gentile life of a slavemaster plantation owner still glorified in the preservation of and display of magnificent mansions?
I recall ‘po white’ lingo which was/is basically a lazy shortening of words. Like you all becomes y’all, children becomes ‘chillin,’ bet you becomes ‘betcha,’ going becomes ‘gawn’ and so on. I never noticed in sharp influx of degenerate slang, like ‘shwimps’, bouyz, haow, cappin,’ crib, hoami, or many other words which mysteriously developed a w sound where none was before.
The American Indian, with their distinct language, have never put odd inflections into English words, nor have they coined English buzz words like ‘crib’ or found it necessary to call their women ‘bitchez.’ They are not all that concerned with such things, though they do cling to their various roots, beliefs and traditions.
Neither have the Chinese, who, for a time, replaced black slaves as a disposable work force. In their communities, they have Chinese items for Chinese people, but never have demanded nation wide Chinese only - though whites can read, buy or use it also, industries like clothing, magazines, music, movies and television programs. Nor do they have a white hating religion like the NOI.
The same with Japanese, Vietnamese, and all of the other immigrants, with the exception of Haitians and Jamaicans, who seem often to rabble rouse among the American blacks.
The basic thing is, no matter what the influence, if you wish to be accepted by a greater society, then you don’t encourage seperationist speech or attitudes. Not too long ago, suddenly every black male started giving himself a prison haircut, which, to me anyhow, I think is offensive. Then, I liked the looks of black males in the rock and roll era and in the 70’s, black women also. They did not have ‘street faces’ on all of the time. Now every black guy I see is wearing a Moslem-like black cloth skull cap. Suddenly, awhile after ‘Roots’, everyone started calling their kids by ‘African’ names. I suppose I understood that, but when the obviously made up African names appeared ‘LaWanda, LaTeesha’ and such, that struck me as going to the stupid side of rationality.
Having been around various people of other nationalities, I’m familiar with it when many choose to wear native styles from the ‘home land,’ so it did not surprise me when blacks started wearing African fashions. It did surprise me when black women started wearing these overlong nails that were 6 inches in length or longer. I recalled reading where, in several ancient societies, long nails indicated a high social standing and the not having to work.
I considered such nails repulsive, having been raised in an era when women’s nails were usually only 1/2 an inch past their finger tips. Then I found quite a few people of several races who thought the nail thing was an attempt by black women to appear gentile and higher than ‘common’ folk as an attempt to gain some ego support for an inferiority complex.
When girls of other races started adopting the style, we looked at their age grouping and ignored it as the usual kid stuff.
I mean, it’s cool to be proud of your race, but when fighting like hell to gain equal everything, it doesn’t make sense to create seperationist attitudes. I ran into an intelligent black doctor in a hospital who turned me off by acting like a hyperactive street black. You know, the type who is all smiles, talks about a mile a minute, expounds on the wisdom of black brothers, and makes you think he’s trying to con you out of something. Plus, he had at least 8 years of college and 2 years of internship and still talked like he ‘waz down wit da boyz.’ I’ve not met doctors of any other race who do that.
OK, someone out there will think ‘he got through on a lenient black quota system and affirmative action.’ Well, even if he did, your IQ to be a medical doctor has to be astronomical and your grades have got to be exceptional, and you have to be tough. Once through, you have to be willing to read tremendous amounts of literature to keep up with the changes. So, this doctor got there on his own brain power. Black or white, a medical college in America will not pass and license someone who cannot make the grade.
This man, after all of the education, was still acting the fool.
Such actions are, in my opinion, self defeating. They encourage the stereotype of the ‘ignorant’ black. Demanding and getting laws passed so a black must be on the working staff of every white owned business is fine. So is demanding black oriented ads in white magazines fine. But, going and generating black only magazines and businesses is not. (Yes, I know, all have some whites on the payroll but the overall topics are restricted to blacks.)
This gets confusing. Equality across the board but then creating seperationist attitudes and getting pissed when further acceptance into the mainstream is slow in coming.
Obviously you havn’t paid enough attention. Look at, say, the way that gansters talked in the thirties. They made up plenty of words to go with their culture. Or listen to university proffesors. They use terms that most people do not use. What, pray tell, makes only black slang "degenerate’?
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The American Indian, with their distinct language, have never put odd inflections into English words, nor have they coined English buzz words like ‘crib’ or found it necessary to call their women ‘bitchez.’ They are not all that concerned with such things, though they do cling to their various roots, beliefs and traditions.
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Oh dear me! Your realize that, with little exception, Native American culture has been anhillated. What little culture does exist tends to be in isolated pockets. I don’t know where you live, but in California, a place which used to be the home of many Native American cultures, I don’t even know enough Native Americans to make any sort of generalizations about what they do and do not do. But, if you look to our Candian friends to the north, they will tell you all about “first nations” seperatism, complete with armed conflict, guerilla style nicknames an god forbid slang.
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In California I have seen lots of Asian-inspired clothing. And there are plenty Asian-American targeted magazines and music. Japanese pop is very big in some places. And anime, while it has a broad appeal, is an Asian art form that is often targeted at Asians. And the International channel, on cable, shows Asian newscasts and the like that don’t have a broad appeal to most whites.
Or are you talking about militant black seperatists? I certainly think that militant seperatists fall under a different catagory than most African-Americans. After all, when we say ‘white’ we are not refering to the KKK.
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Whats wrong with a little speratism? Isn’t it out job to accept the seperatists, not for them to avoid being speratists?
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Not too long ago, suddenly every black male started giving himself a prison haircut, which, to me anyhow, I think is offensive. Then, I liked the looks of black males in the rock and roll era and in the 70’s, black women also. They did not have ‘street faces’ on all of the time.
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Would you rather have them smiling and doing a little softshoe? Life can be grim, and sometimes fashion reflects that.
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Does this individual doctor represent ALL African-American doctors?
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Political equality and cultural sameness are different concepts and not neccesarily prerequsites for one another.
There is no English that is ‘superior’ to any other form of English. Just because it happens to be used by the power elite does not instantly make the Queen’s English superior to any other form of English, be it Cockney or Southern USA or Black English. I do submit that there should be a uniform formal and colloquial English for speaking and writing in academic and other large forums, but asserting its ‘superiority’ (when all it really does at best is ofuscate) while denigrating other dialects is IMO wrong, and reinforces classism and racism, and deny the richness and the new words dialects brings to the language.
A Spanish king spoke with a lisp. So the people he ruled over spoke Spanish with a deliberate lisp as well. Many do to this day. Does it make the Castillian Spanish dialect superior to other Spanish dialects?
From a linguistic perspective, all dialects are equal. AAVE is not random in its grammar; no dialect is.
AAVE is one of many American English dialects. It’s one of the most visible ones, to be sure, but there are many others. (In the Appalacians, for example, there are many thriving dialects.)
The idea of social speak is a pretty universal thing. In casual speech, things are… well, more casual. Slang, shortening of words, vulgarity, what have you- these things do not generally appear in formal speech, regardless of the spoken dialect.
Does anybody else think Reboot42’s posting style sounds awfully familiar?
even sven
Lets not get ridiculous now. The black people are making more money, have greater freedoms, greater respect and many more opportunities than they had in the 70s but many still walk around acting like they hate everything and most black singing groups pose like they’re pissed off all of the time. I liked watching and listening to black groups in the 70’s, especially Donna Summer. I enjoyed watching films of the 50’s black rock and roll artists, like Chuck Berry.
When they performed, they looked good and certainly impressed me as being good people.
Did I state that it did? I’ve also run into excellent black doctors who don’t play the race card. If they do, the don’t do it obviously, at least none I ever ran into. I have seen another black doctor who is a racial activist, walks around in African head bands and wears African robes and makes his views known. Not very comforting to a white patient who is assigned to his care. I’ve yet to meet or see and doctor of any other race allow their personal prejudices show through so obviously.
I have met foreign doctors who have a dim view of patients in general, but that is based on where they came from.
capacitor:
No English language is superior to others but there is an over-all accepted norm for use in general business and standard communication. A hick from backwoods USA is not going to get a seat on the board unless he learns to speak better and basically his form of speech is not a deliberate effort to create a ‘special language.’ In all languages there is a right and a wrong way to speak it. The English used to comment that Standard English has not been spoken in America for years.
The gangster slang of the early 1900s was developed by a criminal element. Somehow, I don’t think the black community is made up of all criminals. Plus it is noticeable that abject poverty usually generates it’s own language among the victims. Such language tends to vanish when finances increase along with education.
There is, of course, casual speech, but it does not often degrade into trash, like have been seen among lower economic whites and in many tight knit black communities.
But the question still is, why enforce a deliberately separate form of the accepted language to create a separation when one desires all of the universal rights that one feels are being withheld from one? Why deliberately piss off the very people you want on your side? Why also chastise members of your own race who choose to make an effort to better themselves by adopting the basic traits of the over all society?
General society has specific guidelines and limitations that are universally accepted by the participants. You think an Irish Street thug is going to walk in with his mishmash of Irish street English and broker a $100,000 a year work contract for himself at a holding company? I think not. The difference is that his culture did not deliberately create his form of speaking as a rebellious gesture.
You ought to watch Divorce Court at night with Judge Ephrim, who is a black woman. Observe her attitudes and speech, which lead me to believe that she will never rise higher than her current position. Observe also how the network has chosen to present her with a majority of cases consisting of the most obnoxious black people they could find. Not a real good social idea. Compare her to Judge Brown, a black man. Observe the difference in his speech and attitude. He will probably climb the judicial ladder. He is presented with a mix, roughly even, of black and white cases consisting of some of the meanest and stupid people they could probably dredge up.
The dichotomy is absolutely remarkable.
Ignore Judge Judy and that Mills Lane. Both yell too damn much no matter who is before them.
Still, if you are in a battle for equal rights, you don’t make it a point to reject as much of the society you want into as you possibly can and get as many of them deliberately pissed off with you as possible.
The Irish did that when they first got here and there was a heck of a tough fight with them before they finally realized that if they wanted to blend in, they had best conform to the over all society. So did the Italians, where once they had communities speaking nothing but Italian. At least the Cubans fought for Miami to become bilingual. They also managed to blend in with much less trouble than blacks have, though I know of people who would love to ship every one of them back to Castro.
I liked the black people of the 70s. They did not seem pissed off all of the time even on the street and did not go around white people acting like they were dangerous or something. They, to me anyhow, even seemed more unified with each other. Black on black crime was lower.
I could go into a black community and people did not walk around scowling and looking generally pissed off at everyone, including each other and they weren’t doing a ‘soft shoe’ or bowing to ‘the man’ either. I’m not quite sure what is going on, though I do know that there has been a dramatic increase in suicides among black males, something even the experts have found surprising.
Don’t you see your huge over-generalizations? I mean it strikes me you’re doing the same thing the black seperatists are doing, focusing on the particularly obnoxious segement of the “other”. What are “most black singing groups” --try checking out the huge R&B market. You’re basing your opinion on Rap. Well, guess what, Rap gets so much attention partially because it is immensely popular among white kids. R&B, which from my experience, is hugely popular among non-teenage males, gets no attention 'cause its largely not cross-over.
So find a new doctor. Sounds like the guy has personality problems.
I’ll agree that one has to learn the “accepted norm” for work and business. However, you’re just wrong in continuing to characterize black american english as a “deliberate effort to create a ‘special language’”: It clearly existed as a dialectal variant well before the black identity movement. Sure, some people are clinging to it and even exageratting their speech as they strive to work through identity crisis in the community. What’s wrong with that?
I worked with a bunch of (white) Texans on a project a few years back. Although all were college educated and could, if they so chose, speak what I consider to be proper English, they insisted on using an often exagerated Texan drawl (or whatever you’d charecterize that as). Part of asserting their Texanness while surrounded by ferigners and yankees.
Black Americans have no monopoly on this sort of behaviour. What’s your obsession?
In all standardized languages. Plenty of languages do not have imposed standards.
Gangster slang itself was based on the urban dialects of Chicago and New York. My mom’s family are native new yorkers and speak with some of the most atrocious accents I’ve ever heard in my life. And their speech is laced with bizarre expressions --yiddishisms (although they’re low class WASPs), other slang. Sure, different classes often produce dialectal variation as banners for their identity. It’s nothing new, the strange way my father’s family speaks, especially the older ones, is a clear sign in my mind to reflect their perceived upper-class origins. They have their own slangs, but ones which are valued since they were relatively wealthy.
Frankly your attempts to pretend there is something particularly wierd about black dialect is beginning to sound a bit… suspicious. The rest of your message doesn’t really merit comment as your assertions and questions, if that’s what they are, have already been answered. What’s your real beef?
I have a great idea!!
From now on, change all references to Afro-Americans to the term ‘green people’ and change all mention of white people to ‘orange people.’ Then no one can accuse any one of having alternate motives for discussing anything concerning them because the conversation then becomes theoretical because, as we all know, such people do not exist!
That should keep this from evolving into a rumble.
So, do we have it down now? Green people and Orange people.
At first I thought Reboot was just another sheltered, suburbanite making ignorant generalizations based on his limited experiences with Black people in his little world. Now I think he has greater issues.
You seem to dismiss the ‘shortcomings’ of White people and focus only on those of Black people. (quote: “Ignore Judge Judy and that Mills Lane.”) You are constantly taking one or two examples of what you deem to be ‘Blacks acting Black’ and using them to say ‘See, there they go again…’ I won’t even touch that line about Judge Ephrim! (In your defense, I’ve never even heard of that show).
If you posted this thread to gain a better understanding of Blacks in America, you were on the right track. However, you latest post leads me to believe you are a racist or, at best, someone who celebrates his ignorant, myopic views. Do I think you’re going to go out and join the KKK tomorrow? No. But I, too, want to know: What’s your REAL beef?
SuoNa: Hmm, don’t know why my link didn’t work for you, it still works for me, and so does your quote of the same link. However, it’s not Robin Lakoff but Charles J. Fillmore, and the URL for cut-and-paste purposes is
http://www.cal.org/ebonics/ebfillmo.htm
Reboot42, I agree with other posters that you’re kind of starting to sound like a broken record. (Wow, how much longer will it be before that simile becomes totally meaningless to most hearers, I wonder? :)) Just to spell it out: the fact that you do not like Muslim headgear on black men, or long fingernails on black women, or rap music, or AAVE, or one or two black doctors or black neighborhoods that you happen to be personally familiar with, is I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T to the facts about the genesis and development of African-American culture, and to the moral issue of whether blacks should be treated as equal citizens.
You know, people’s rights are not diminished just because they may happen to have some habits you don’t like, even if your ethnic group is more numerous and powerful than theirs is. You’re reminding me of people who complain that if gays really want to be treated equally, then they should stop “flaunting” or “parading” their gayness “because it grosses people out.” (Like Molly Ivins’ quote from her mother: “I have nothing against homosexuals, I just wish they’d stay in the closet.”)
If you don’t care for some aspects of African-American culture (or gay culture, for that matter), that’s swell and dandy and I hope it keeps fine for you. But if you’re trying to say that blacks should change their culture solely because many people don’t like it and it might reinforce racist bigotry, then you are violating a fundamental principle of American democracy. I agree that blacks shouldn’t pick on other blacks who don’t choose to participate in these aspects of the culture (don’t like to speak AAVE, only listen to classical music, whatever). But neither should anyone pick on the blacks who do participate. They should not be expected to adopt a “pleasing” or “popular” or “non-threatening” style simply to attain their full rights as citizens.
All music is an expression of the culture that influenced it.
However ther is STILL significant poverty in these communities. Or are you intentionally ignoring that factor. Like another poster mentioned, you seem to be basing this attitude on Rap music “personalities”. Which BTW, tends to be exactly that. Haven’t you ever seen an interview with say Ice Cube or others on video channels. Most speak well, it’s an act, based on an expression of where the music came from.
You’re contradicting yourself
Pretty sweeping generalization wouldn’t you say. I still confused on why you’re taking expressions of culture, and saying it’s a deliberate attempt to piss off white people. Common roots breeds common expressions and venaculars, NOT just black people.
Completely unsupported by both logic and the facts you yourself presented.
Again a reference to popular entertainment. You do recognize a difference between entertainment and reality right?
[quote]
Still, if you are in a battle for equal rights, you don’t make it a point to reject as much of the society you want into as you possibly can and get as many of them deliberately pissed off with you as possible.
The Irish did that when they first got here and there was a heck of a tough fight with them before they finally realized that if they wanted to blend in, they had best conform to the over all society. So did the Italians, where once they had communities speaking nothing but Italian. At least the Cubans fought for Miami to become bilingual. They also managed to blend in with much less trouble than blacks have, though I know of people who would love to ship every one of them back to Castro.
[quote]
You seem obsessed with forcing everyone into a cookie cutter model of what YOU feel Americans should act like. What’s the matter with people being different?
There are so many problems with this statement I just break it into small pieces for you.
The 70s were different the 80’s as each were different from the 90s. This occured with every culture not just blacks, you seem incapable of grasping that. thisnk of the differences between the way you are now vs. the way you were in say HS or the mid 80’s. Got it, now apply to society as a whole.
Don’t think anything like the crack epidemic that ravaged poor communites everywhere had something to do with that higher crime rate? Seems to be a big jump from AAVE or slang to criminal behavior.
I know where you are coming from, and I thought the same thing after reading through the first couple of posts. Moreso after the latest one or two. But mine is not to question why, and making allegations is not my bag. What is, is; and what isn’t, isn’t. It’ll all come out in the end.
Reboot, here’s a little snippet about Judge Ephriam’s career. Paraphrased folks - I don’t want to get in trouble.
She began her legal career in law enforcement as a correctional officer at the Women’s Division of the federal Bureau of Prisons, Terminal Island. She then accepted a job as a legal secretary (while a wife, and mother to 3) while attending law school.
Following, she spent five years as a Deputy City Attorney in Los Angeles, where she served as Domestic violence Coordinator for spousal, parent and child abuse. In 1982, she went into private practice doing family law, personal injury and probate. She is also a Hearing Examiner for the City of Los Angeles, Civil Service Commission.
In 1993, the Women Lawyers Association of Los Angeles recognized Ms. Ephriam with the Distinguished Service Award for her numerous contributions as co-founder of the Harriet Buhai Center for Family Law, a legal assistance program that provides services to impoverished people in the areas of family law, guardianship and paternity. She also received the 1995 Woman of the Year Award - California State Assembly - 48th District. In 1996 the Los Angeles County Bar Association gave Ms. Ephriam the Spencer-Brandeis Award. The Harriet Buhai Family Law Center gave her the Zephyr Ramsey Award for her years of exceptional service to the community. In 1997, Whittier College of Law, her alma mater, named her Alumni of the Year.
Yep - doesn’t look like she’s going anywhere, does it? :rolleyes:
What, exactly is your agenda with this? Are ethnic groups that are different from you only allowed expressions of culture that you approve of? Or understand? Or can identify with?
I suppose that all the folks jumping on Reboot’s back don’t judge people by their speech? I know I do, and I make no apologies for that. There is a time and place for informal speech, and most, if not all, people are aware of that and practice that. You wouldn’t use certain words or phrases in a job interview - not necessarily formal language, but far from what you’d use at home.
My father is white, my mother is Mexican by heritage, and she spoke Spanish as her primary language while growing up. Though she was taught English from beginning school, she has maintained an accent and “spanglish” idiosyncracies for a long time. But while I was growing up, any grammar errors were swiftly corrected by both parents. As a result, I’m generally well-spoken, as are my siblings. This makes an impression - and you can bet that if it comes down between a person who speaks standard English well and a person who will only use informal speech of any kind, the former will get the job. Good grammar (by standard English rules)is a quick-and-dirty way of assessing an individual’s desire to impress, education level, and to some extent, intelligence. I concede that it’s not an accurate measure by any means, but if you’re hiring, say, a receptionist, would you hire someone who says “He not in the office” or “He ain’t in the office”? Of course not, because you know what impression it would make.
As far as AAVE is concerned, it seems to me that it is simply modified English - whether it has its own grammar rules concerns me not at all. It’s not standard English, and standard English is historically the formal American norm, whether anyone likes it or not. Yes, it has evolved from “Queen’s English”. It continues to evolve, as is the nature of language, but basic rules and conventions have remained much the same over the years. Does anyone have a better idea than teaching and using standard English in schools? In the case of immigrants to America, many maintain their native language while learning English in order to function effectively in America. (Though I don’t know that it’s fair to compare immigrants to African Americans - obviously, African Americans have largely shaped American culture as we know it, and so they’re not “outsiders” and therefore shouldn’t have to assimilate to American ways.)
I agree with the posters who think that the situation will change with time. Just as I speak the way my parents speak, children today learned most of their speaking conventions from their family. And so what? There’s nothing wrong with maintaining a cultural identity by using native language. It’s important to know, however, when it’s appropriate to use it, and when it’s necessary to bend to convention.
I think Reboot’s major issue here isn’t only language, it’s the supposed tendency of black America to reject educated blacks as “acting white”. It bothers me just as much. Especially when it’s the Hispanics with whom I attended high school doing it, or rednecks telling their younguns not to get all uppity with their book-learnin’. The way I see it, people of disadvantaged groups will disparage those that try to break away from the group, and this is one way they do it.
Side note: Being the half-breed that I am, I’ve noticed that I have a tendency to find a way to distinguish myself from the prevailing group. For instance: when I was in a largely white grammar school, I made a point of referring to myself as Mexican. When I was in high school, I made a point of acting and talking “white”. Maybe I’m simply a contrarian, but maybe it’s my puny little way of maintaining my own identity. Maybe everyone’s like that. Except for white-bread suburbians - those folks all WANT to be the same. 