In this age of compulsory education how does black ghetto grammar survive?

In My Humble Opinion
1

In 2008 how can a black teenager graduate from a public high school with at least 12 years of education under their belt, and barely be able to speak standard English?

I suppose that reading all the stories about scholastic reform over the years I was under the impression that the schools of 2008 were thoroughly invested with a strong “No Child left Behind” ethos, and were far more proactive in making sure all kids met certain academic standards. And yet, when I hear the black kids talking among themselves in groups outside my son’s public high school it’s almost a parody of the worst of ghetto speak.

Is it taught so early by by peers and parents that it d never goes away? Is it a deliberate choice they make to distinguish themselves from white culture? How do such different grammar constructs survive in the face of an educational, and larger societal context that does not support them, and even punishes them in many subtle, and not so subtle ways?

2

Do you really think we learn to speak in school?

3

Yeah and how’s come those kids in Pittsburgh can’t say “iron” right, and those kid in Boston can’t say “I parked the car in Harvard yard” like an American?

I mean, for real!

4

To certain extent yes. I did not emulate my mother and father’s slight to not so light southern accent, and I always assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the fact of being immersed in a non-southern accent speaking environment was mainly responsible.

5

You do of course realize that ‘No Child Left Behind’ made schools worse, not better, right?

6

Yes, but you didn’t learn from explicit instruction from your teachers; you learnt from osmosis from the collective mannerisms of your peers.

7

It’s also interesting that you assume, in the OP, that these kids are unable to speak standard English, simply because they speak another lect when talking among themselves. My parents and their friends often speak among themselves in Tamil, not because they can’t speak English perfectly well, but because it’s what they grew up with and are accustomed to using in such situations; if they find it comfortable, why should they change it? [Don’t pretend there is something significantly different about the moral calculus of the situation when one’s native manner of speaking is a foreign language rather than simply a ‘foreign’ lect]

I’m glad you shy away from explicitly denouncing these kids’ manners of speech as somehow objectively worse than the standard, but your tone does come across as though you feel there is something wrong with their speaking this way.

8

I’m sure it’s a perfectly workable peer to peer method of communication. Ghetto speak is not immoral, illegal or, so far as I know, fattening, but since most people tend to write as they speak more often than not, in my opinion it is likely to have somewhat negative effect on their overall functional ability to communicate in written form. This is a potentially crippling barrier in an information centric society where the ability to communicate clearly and effectively is often key to being able to progress in most jobs and professions.

9

Isn’t there? It is objectively more difficult to communicate with people who don’t speak or write something close to standard english. The more english skills decay in poor communities, the bigger the chasm gets between the poor and the middle class.

Nobody is “assuming” that poor blacks can’t read or write standard english, because you can demonstrate it on job applications, scholarship applications, graduation/dropout rates, and your own two eyes. You can’t make this social problem go away by waving a “racism” stick at it and pretending that it doesn’t exist. Our schools are failing poor people, especially poor urban blacks.

10

What makes you say that? Do you write the same way you talk? I bet not. Anyone who talks the way they write is either a horrible writer or a very boring conversationalist.

I’m teaching English in an area where there are few English speakers. You bet when I finally do find a fellow Anglophone, my speech is as American, Californian, slang ridden and slurred as it can be. In part so that I can talk about the challenges of living in a different culture without fear that someone who picked up some English in high school will understand me, in nostalgia for a place where I belong, and in part from sheer rebellion from the grammar-book English I speak in class.

However, I can promise you I never include staple words such as “dude” or “gnarly” in my formal writing. I’m pretty sure black people are just as capable as me.

11

Many people–and many of them poor–can’t write or speak standard English. As a teacher a racially diverse urban school, my experience is that the problem is about the same among academically weak kids, regardless of race.

One change in education, though, is that the emphasis is entirely on written English these days. That is what’s tested, and that’s what needs to be correct. Lots of teachers simply let spoken English go because they only have so many hours in a year, and to do anything meaningful with spoken English takes up an inordinate amount of class time (for recitations and presentations). It’d be great if they gave a speech every six weeks or so, but in a class of 30, letting each kid give a 3 minute speech–that would take three days to get through.

12

It’s both. I’m sure the parents and other adults in the community also speak “ebonics” or “ghetto-speak” or “jive” or whatever the correct term for inner city urban dialect.

The problem is not so much that they aren’t speaking the Queens English. The problem is that particular dialect of English is often viewed as provincial, unintelligent and uneducated. It would be the same as a white person speaking with a strong Brooklyn or Southie (Boston) accent. People with certain English or a slight Indian accent are generally percieved as more intelligent and educated.

So clearly part of the problem of “ghetto speak” is taht it sets you up for bigotry and racism.

13

First of all, can we not call it “ghetto black English”? It’s commonly referred to, in linguistics, as African American English, or AAE. The term “ghetto” carries a lot of baggage, and a lot of people who speak AAE grow up in the 'burbs or in rural settings and even in nice parts of cities.

Language is intimately tied to identity. The way you speak tells loads about you. In schools, African American kids are told that they speak a “broken” or “bad” form of English, one that has no grammar, and that the way white people speak is superior. From my point of view, this is a major flaw in our educational system. Ideally, we need to embrace non-standard dialects, show kids that how they speak is regular, has rules just like standard English does, and that the way they speak is not “bad” or “broken.” And from that foundation, kids can learn standard English (which no one denies has an important currency in our culture) from a stance of empowerment. Telling them that the way they speak (and often the way their peers and parents speak) is wrong is almost equivalent in a lot of ways of saying they, as a person, are wrong. This is not a good starting point.

The linguistic choices of African Americans is also complex out of school. So, say an African American kid (or any non-standard speaker for that matter) actually tries to speak as their teachers tell them is necessary. They go home, and they are seen as affected, uppity, an oreo (or a banana or an apple, etc), ashamed of what they came from. Thus, a lot of kids have to be bidialectal if they want to get a good job and remain part of their community.
There are two types of linguistic prestige. There is overt prestige, where a linguistic variable or dialect has the kind of prestige we are concerned about in schools. These are the features used by the ruling classes, and are often deemed necessary to do well in school or in a job. Then there’s covert prestige. This prestige is often afforded to those variables or dialects spoken by lower classes and people of color. These are the things you need to be part of the group. AAE has a lot of covert prestige, even among people who are not African American.
You also ask about comprehension. AAE, when you come down to it, is really not that hard for a standard English speaker to understand with just a little background knowledge. The phonology is a bit different, but that’s just a matter of taking a little extra time to get used to it. The aspectual system of AAE is more of a problem for non-speakers because it is not easily identifiable as different than standard English. But, seriously, standard English is not inherently easier to understand. Since it is learned by everyone in school, it could be seen as easier since it is something we all share on some level, so I see your point there somewhat, but I really think it’s overstating the situation a bit. Language is not just about communicating what you’re saying; much is communicated by how you say it as well.

And, as for writing, a lot of my (college) students speak a form of AAE in the classroom and to their friends, but turn in beautifully written, very standard English assignments.

Here’s some links on AAE: http://www.linguistlist.org/topics/ebonics/
And here’s the Linguistic Society of America’s resolution about the Oakland Ebonics controversy: LINGUIST List 8.57: Ebonics: LSA Resolution

There’s a lot more info out there on the web, but my internet connection is behaving oddly, only letting me go to certain pages.

Also, most linguistic research suggests we emulate the speech of our peers more so than what’s taught in classes or by adults.

14

And NOT speaking it gets you ridiculed by your friends and family for being an asshole race-traitor who thinks he’s better than everyone else.

15

Really? When I was growing up, my teachers told me I was wrong all the time:

“Mr. Excellent, you’re not doing these multiplication problems correctly.”

“Mr. Excellent, you misspelled ‘excellent’.”

“Mr. Excellent, if you don’t pour that acid more slowly, you’re going to put yourself and your lab partner in the hospital.”

It was never said in such a way as to suggest I was a bad person - simply that I was making an error, one that I could (and should) correct. It continues to this day - I just turned in a paper for my law journal, and it turns out that many of my formatting and stylistic choices were wrong - and my editors said so, bluntly. Does this mean they think I’m a bad person? I certainly hope not.

In the real world, not all ways of doing things are equally correct. Sometimes people do things the wrong way, and need to be corrected - it’s nothing personal, and it seems to me that one of the most valuable things kids can learn in school is that being “wrong” just means you need to fix something, not that you’re a bad person. But to pretend that bad grammar isn’t “wrong”, merely “different”, in order to spare their fragile egos, seems a disservice to these students.

16

Bill Cosby used to talk about how young black people have forgotten “code-switching”, which is how most people (not just urban African American) people act in society - I talk one way to my friends and another to my boss. The problem isn’t when you use nonstandard English at the corner with your buddies; it’s when you can’t use anything else in a job interview. I do see a lot of young urban (not just black) teenagers who seem incapable of code switching. (I am a librarian who you’re asking for help. Last time I looked, my name was not “Shorty”. And stop mumbling!)

17

So I’m the only one bothered by the misspelling in the thread title?

18

It shouldn’t be glossed over that many schools are still pretty segregated. It’s not unusual to encounter inner city schools that are 100% black. I’d be willing to wager that black children code switch with more ease when they are around white children. And in doing so, they will adopt their some of their crazy speech mannerisms (e.g., using “like” a lot or exclaiming that someone “totally rawks!”)

On the flip side, my experience has led me to believe that white people who went to heavily integrated schools aren’t as weirded out by AAVE as whites who weren’t schooled with blacks. It could be that white teachers at predominately black schools become so used to the dialect through the years that it becomes almost “normal” to them.

I don’t recall having teachers that made a big to-do about their students’ speech, unless it was mealy-mouthed or laden with profanity.

19

Your understanding of math or chemistry or spelling is not tied inextricably to your personal identity the same way your dialect is.

And AAE grammar is not wrong on any objective level. It is merely different from the standard, and the only reasons it should be shied from are social.

20

I was too, but by the time I noticed my magical 5 minute window had slammed closed. So closed.