you with the face,
No, I have no point. I’m not questioning the validity of “Black” as a label for “most likely mixed but with some slave ancestry”. I am trying to understand what goes into identification with one group over another and trying to understand the contributions of bloodline, appearence, and culture. These issues interest me for a variety of reasons and only a few specific to Black/White issues. The issues in my town referenced above is part of it. The aspect of any Black bloodline trumps all in particular is curious to me even after Monstro’s posts. If a mixed child is called “Black” it embraces Black heritage but denies another legacy at the same time, it rejects a heritage as well. How individuals deal with multiple group identifications that to some seem mutually exclusive, or aspects of their individuality that cross or conflict with group identification is really my interest. Black is just a handy group to use to explore the issue. I could have used Jewish in America and the answers would be different perhaps, but no less complex.
BTW, I wonder what percentage of identified “Whites” in America have some “Black” bloodline that they are unaware of. If they find out about it are they then “Black”?
Yeah, I think she did. I think that carrying that baby around for 9 months and going into labor meant that the kid was half from her, half from her husband. Mixed. Those kids’ identities and heritages come from both sides of the family tree—the husband’s side, and the wife’s side. I think that’s how she felt, and still feels.
I’d like to see the day when everyone is called “mixed,” because truthfully, isn’t that what we all are?
Bingo. I hear that term a lot.
Incidentally, my BIL’s last name is Hispanic. I have no idea why. But that causes confusion sometimes too.
Because I’m from the melting pot that is known as Southern California, I sometimes forget (or have trouble) identifying who is what race. It’s almost like it slides right past me. There have been a few times when I was so completely oblivious that when someone made some comment about so-and-so being Mexican or Middle Eastern or whatever, I am thinking, “What? I never thought about that.” That doesn’t happen all the time but it’s kind of interesting when it does.
This is naive, sorry. Your sister needs to be prepared when her children aren’t called “mixed” but black. Your sister needs to prepare her children for the inevitable day they are referred to as “black kids”. They need to be prepared for “nigger” as well. The world unfortunately is not going to see their white mother when they look at your nephews. They are going to see “blackness” or at least “non-whiteness”. Insisting otherwise is potentially dangerous.
If, heaven forbid, your nephews get in trouble in public (like boys are wont to do), they will not be described by onlookers as “white kids” or “mixed” kids. They will be described as “light skinned black boys”. That ain’t going to change no matter how ridiculous we think it is.
Um, no. A label doesn’t “embrace” anything. I am proudly black, but that doesn’t mean I have denied the other ancestries flowing through my blood. Tiger Woods calls himself black, but he doesn’t deny his Thai, Native American, and European influences. Many biracial people, like Halle Berry and Alicia Keyes, have praised their white mothers in the limelight while still referring to themselves as “black”. A political racial identity has nothing to do with how one celebrates themselves at home, with family.
If you saw Halle Berry and didn’t know she was biracial, wouldn’t you say she was black?
Anecdote: I’m a light-skinned black woman who looks biracial. In fact, I’ve gotten in arguments with strangers on the street who claim to know that I’m biracial, despite my assertions otherwise. I am biracial, but not in the sense they think. Both of my parents are black, but like most black Americans, we have more than one kind of blood flowing in our veins.
Anyway, last year I accidently hit a parked car while I was driving the school van. I had to park the van, so unfortunately I left the scene of the accident. I was gone for maybe five minutes, but there were already notes on the hit car from witnesses who had seen me bust out the tail light. One of them described me, the driver, as an “African American woman”. Not a woman who looks like she’s Native American mixed with European mixed with African. No. Just African American. No one asked “What do you call yourself?” when they pinned that note on the car. They just looked at me and came to their conclusion. My political identity at work.
Parents in black/white interracial relationship who plan to have kids must be prepared to deal with these realities. “Mixed” isn’t any more accurate than “black” in the political sense of the word. And if your child is clearly not white, then you need to prepare that child for life as a non-white. You will only be fooling yourself if you think your “whiteness” matters in the long run.
The oldest kid is in college. I think she’s had plenty of time to adjust. Her kids are “mixed.” I hear no horror stories of being called “nigger,” either. Now, I’m not saying that it’s never happened. But it’s not huge problem that I hear her constantly complaining about either. It wasn’t a huge problem for her husband. I remember being a little shocked when I heard that he’d only had one experience (of being called “nigger”) up until that point. (He was in his 20s when he told this story.) Maybe that comes from being living in a conservative military family in California, I don’t know. It surprised me too, but there you go.
Same goes with their marriage. I haven’t heard any latest updates, but I don’t hear stories of them being constantly hassled for being a interracial couple. In fact, my sister was married for quite a few years before she had her first experience of negative treatment because of her marriage. It’s not a constant thing.
Give me a break. These kids are pretty old now, and I see no signs of “danger” yet. Maybe this has something to do with the environment (upper-middle class Southern California desert community)? Something maybe you know nothing about? Are you from Southern California?
The world can call them whatever the hell they want. No one can stop that. But you nor anyone else can tell my sister that she shouldn’t call her kids “mixed.” That is an accurate description of what they are.
So both are innaccurate, so why not decide to identify ones’ kids (or oneself) as “mixed”?
“Mixed” isn’t white. It’s “mixed.” I doubt that anyone thinks that “mixed” or “bi-racial” means white.
I apologize for assuming your nephews were small children, yosemitebabe. I’m glad they are doing well.
Most of the country isn’t SoCal, upper-middle class, though. Surely you know that. No, I’m not from SoCal. Nor am I upper-middle class. That’s why I said “potentially” dangerous. And I wasn’t talking about dangerous in the “violent, hate-crime” kind of way. I’m talking about danger in the sense of being careless and naive.
I’ve been called “nigger” exactly one time to my face. But it came as no surprise since I had been raised to expect it. That’s all I’m saying. Preparation is key.
I think your sister and b-in-l are fortunate in that regards. Interracial relationships between blacks and whites are still taboo, and I’ve seen hatred expressed about them from both sides.
That’s fine really, yosemitebabe. I’m believe people have the right to call themselves whatever they want to be called. I’m just saying that folks need to understand that when people talk about the “black community”, they are including mixed people too. When people talk about anti-black bigotry and racism, they are talking about bigotry and racism against mixed people too. “Mixed” people are NOT in a separate group from black people politically. Our interests for racial justice are completely aligned because the shit hits us all the same way. Personally, you can call yourself a purple ant-eater for all I care. Politically, though, it’s a different matter.
Because it’s self-evident perhaps? Or maybe because–at least to me–it’s redundant? I don’t understand why it’s so important if we understand the meaning of the term “black”. To me, it’s like saying you’re American. What is an American? Does “American” sum up all of your nationalities and ethnicities? If I say I’m American, does that mean my ancestors all hail from Europe? No. To me, that’s how being “black” is. You can be technially monoracial, biracial, or multiracial. You can have skin so dark it’s blue or it can be the lightest pink. You can speak Spanish or the Queen’s English. But if you have significant* African ancestry, you will be black, just as if you’re born in the US, you’re an American. The label does not contain your essence or your “heritage”. It’s just a way of categorizing yourself in the framework American society has already established. Coming up with the term “mixed” is not a good way of challenging that framework, IMHO. It’s simply creating another label with equally arbitrary definitions attached to it.
I have no beef with people who claim “mixdom” before “blackdom”, though. I simply understand why this is 1) essentially unnecessary and 2) why it is silly (and foolish, too) when it comes to racial politics.
*I don’t know what “significant” means. Perhaps it’s significant when it’s apparent. Which could mean anything, really.
I don’t think that my sister and BIL are careless or naive. They just feel entitled to call her kids what they are: mixed.
You can rest assured that with the LA Riots and the OJ trial (things were real tense with that) that my sister and her family are “prepared.” When you see the city burn, and you know the reason why, it’s hard to ignore.
We all know that there are assholes out there. My sister knew that going in. But it hasn’t been a hellhole of constant hassles and discrimination, that’s all I’m saying.
Interestingly enough, my brother-in-law is a staunch conservative. (We’re talkin’ here staunch, STAUNCH conservative.) I think the polls will tell us that not a high percentage of black people are that conservative. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) My brother-in-law is kind of unique in a lot of ways. Doesn’t mean that he’d be exempt from discrimination, I’m just saying—he’s definitely unique. (Great guy, but kinda anal. But I digress. ;))
My nephews have a black father, so his heritage is their heritage. They also have a white mother, who has a proud heritage which includes a really cool castle in England. Her heritage is also their heritage.
People may decide that they are part of the “black community,” and maybe my sister and her family can’t stop others from thinking that. But it doesn’t change the fact that these boys are also part of another “community.” Even if politically, some people don’t want to see it.
I don’t think that my sister insists on calling her sons “mixed” in order to separate them politically from black people. She is aware that some people will see them as black. But she classifies them as mixed, as is her right, since they are a product of a "mixed’ union.
Monstro, I think that you are just plain wrong here. When you choose one group as your group you accept its heritage as yours. When someone is biracial and they choose to identify themselves as Black they are announcing that their being Black is a more critical part of who they are than their White heritage. And maybe it is, just because it is the identity that others will impose upon you. But then does self-identity become just an extension of that which others call us?
I wonder if such actions even enable the many out there who persist in thinking of race as some valid biological construct (you’ve been part of those threads, if I recall) instead of being an arbitrary sociologic one.
Let us take your “American” example. Damn straight calling yourself American says something about who you are. And if had dual citizenship and choose to only refer to yourself as “American” it would tell more. It would tell that you embrace the history of this country as your history even if you were not born here. If you went somewhere else in the world choosing to identify yourself as “American” would open yourself up to assumptions that others make about that group, both positive and negative.
What you choose to call yourself says something about you, no matter others choose to call you, if only that you accept the power that others have to name you.
Monstro, how do you prepare kids for something like that?
Not to sound naive, but doesn’t educating your children to expect racism perpetuate racist attitudes in a certain way?
Say you’re father is German and your mother is American. You are born and raised in America. You speak American English, without a trace of a German accent. Although you visit Germany every year to visit grandparents and you know the history of that side of the family, you feel more connected to the US since you were born there and live there.
Now, let’s say you go to Iraq to fight. Do you identify yourself as someone with dual citzenship? Do you think people will see you as equally representing America and Germany when you trundle down the road in your humvee? Are you lying when you identify yourself as an “American”?
Say you’re visiting Iraq as a civilian. Do you think people will see a German American? Or will they see an American, period? Do you think acknowledging this fact and accepting it as an important reality is a bad thing?
Being black in the US is the same way. Say your father is white and your mother is black. By virtue of your “non-white” appearance, you will be black. You will be indistinguishable from other black people, even those who don’t have a white parent. People will see you as black. Just as it is wise for an American to understand the implications of their overt nationality in Iraq, it’s important for someone who “looks” black to understand the implications of their blackness in the US. It is foolish for an American in Iraq to call himself a German American because the Iraqis aiming bombs at them DON’T CARE. It is politically inconsequential what their genetic stock is. A black person with a white parent is in the same situation. Their white parent is politically–but not culturally or socially–inconsequential. Blackness trumps everything in the political arena, but that doesn’t mean it trumps who you are on a personal level.
Read “The Color of Water” by James McBride. He’s a biracial man who refers to himself as “black”. And yet he proudly celebrates the culture of his white Jewish mother…a person who accepted right away that her children were black.
Biracial people above everyone else understand the importance of multiple identities. It’s everyone else who are confused.
Monstro, not to beat this point down, but your example is exactly the point. For that person being an American is the predominant, more important part of who they are. They were raised in America, have American cultural attributes including speech patterns, feel strongly enough about being an American that they are putting their life on the line for that country. German is a lesser part of who they are. They are declaring that.
What you are saying, I think, is that since the external superficial appearence will lead others to call you “Black” that such an identity automatically becomes the more important aspect of your public identity. I just want to clarify that and lay out the ramifications of self-perpetuating the one drop rule.
How would it do that? If I warn a child about child molestors, I’m not perpetuating child molestation, am I?
I wasn’t raised to be militant or racist (although my mother did try to instill a lot of mistrust in me). I was simply raised knowing that I was different and that my difference might make situations weirder or more uncomfortable than usual. When someone called me a “nigger”, it didn’t come as a surprise because 1) I knew I was black and 2)I knew the word is used to disparage blacks without justification or cause. It didn’t make the name any less hurtful, but I wasn’t shocked because I had grown up kinda expecting it. I had no illusions that my light skin would keep me from that peculiar rite of passage because my parents didn’t raise me to think like that. I think that’s all a parent can do.
Funny story. I once had an angry drunk call me “Jewboy” and another, more offensive term. I was shocked, but not really hurt, since 1) my upbringing had never prepared me for this sort of thing, and 2) I’m not actually Jewish, though my appearance and last name seem to lead folks to think otherwise.
But I am certain that my experience is not comparable with the workaday racism that darker skinned folks face.
[shameless hijack]
P.S. Monstro, I could present non-aquatic research (e.g., my lichen work) at the NOAA NERR conferences, since I did it at a NERR site, correct?
[/shameless hijack]
Yes, that is what I’m trying to say. And really that’s all I’m saying. I mean, it’s unfortunate that there will always a big gulf between self-identity and outward identity. We will always be shaped by how the world sees us. I think the best way to deal with it is to be have a well-grounded sense of self. The “one drop rule” doesn’t have to affect your sense of self, even if it does affect the outcome of your life.
Let’s take this in another direction. Let’s say you adopt a child from Nigeria. This child is undeniably “black”, alright? And let’s say you’re white and you bring home the child to your white family and relatives and friends. You raise him in a white world, for all intents and purposes.
Does the child become a white American?
If he calls himself “black”, will he be denying the contribution you’ve made to his cultural upbringing?
If he claims “white”, should he expect to find ridicule? Should he expect to find, at best, some confused reactions? Wouldn’t it be better if he claimed “black”?
Technically, from a cultural standpoint, he wouldn’t be “black”. He’d be “white”, or “mainstream” American. And he may very well consider himself to be white. He has the right to think like this. But it would be foolish for him to expect others to accept him as a white man. And I would blame his parents for letting such a fool idea develop in his head.
My point in the German American-in-Iraq example is that a person can actually view themself to be culturally and ethnically German mixed with American. They could consider themselves more German than American. They may eschew all nationality labels all together. And this may matter when it comes to finding dates or finding people with shared interests and hobbies. But as long as they are wearing an American uniform, waving an American flag, it’s their Americanness that matters when the bombs are falling down on them. All the allegiance to Germany isn’t going to change that, and it would be foolish to think otherwise.
To many people–including myself–equating “Mixed” with “White” and “Black” is like admitting that bombs aren’t still being dropped on people and that race doesn’t matter anymore. Maybe aligning with “Mixed” is a way of stopping the bombs, but I don’t think so. For some people, I think it’s their misguided attempt to escape from the bombs. Like exclaiming, “But my father’s from Germany!” will help an American soldier escape from a mortar shell.
Apologies, DSeid. I’ll stop hijacking in a moment.
You mentioned the last NERR conference in another thread. I thought that was cool, since I had just come back from a NERR site, so I looked at your profile website, which links to your work-related website. Yup, it was a very swampy forest (“mixed hardwood/evergreen estuarine forest”), but we were looking at strictly terrestrial lichens.
Didn’t mean to freak you out, Monstro. I suppose turnabout is fair play, so: My advisor’s page which briefly mentions my thesis work (and inexplicably says I’m still an undergrad). He got his Ph.D. at Rutgers also.
And, of course, pictures of me doing assorted dorky things:
Why would it be so grievous if he called himself “mixed”? He’s undeniably “black” in his appearance, and in reality, his appearance reflects where he was born and who is responsible for his genetic heritage. But he also feels “white” because he has these white parents and they are a part of his life and are part of his heritage too.
“Mixed” isn’t white, it’s “mixed.” It’s acknowledging both sides of what has made him him. The black (African) side, and the white (parental units) side. Sounds perfectly accurate to me.
It’s really hard to think that one is “white” when they watch the news and see how things are. But there’s no reason that one has to just give up and personally adhere to everyone else’s labels either.
I can’t speak for everyone else here, but I don’t think for a second that my sister wants her kids to be called “mixed” in order to stop the “bombs” that she knows exist and aren’t going away. She simply wants them to be called something that is accurate and acknowledges that her kids are a mixture of two backgrounds. :shrug: If people are gonna think differently, there’s nothing she can do about that, but so what? Her kids are still mixed.
You’re an American, right? And you’re also “white”, right? And you’re also “woman”, right? Having one label does not preclude another label. Identifying yourself as an “American” does not mean you aren’t descended from Spanish, Irish, German, French, and Native American peoples. Identifying yourself as “black” does not mean you have to deny your white father, mother, grandparent, or great-grandparent. It’s simply having a certain awareness of your place in society.
Why do “white” people call themselves that? Why has this discussion centered on the identity of black people, when it wasn’t black people who created “whiteness” and “blackness” as concepts in the first place? IMHO, the concept of “whiteness” is what’s making our understanding of “blackness” difficult. “Blackness” is easy to define in comparison.
He’s free to identify himself as “mixed” if he wants. But when this hypothetical “mixed” Nigerian American enters the real world and people treat him as a black man, him citing his white parents is NOT going to mean anything. If a police officer picks him up because he “fits the profile”, he will not be able to get off the hook because he’s “mixed”. It would serve him best to recognize that his public identity is “black” whether he wants to claim this personally or not. The personal stuff doesn’t have anything to do with being street wise. That’s all I’m sayin’.
No problemo, 'possum stalker. I had forgotten that I linked my serious website to my funny website. I’m actually trying to get a job over in your department (isn’t that a crazy coincidence?) Wish me good luck!
Apologies for the continued hijacking. I will stop now.
Which is understandable. But them going by black as opposed to mixed doesn’t change anything. They will not look any less like her or lose any of their cultural ties to her side of the family, just by saying they are black. If their dad is black and is, as you stated, a can of mixed nuts himself, then how is his kids racially any different than him? Trace it back: Why is their dad black? Because his parents are black. But why are his parents black, if they too are racially heterogenous?
Like I said before, it is only a label. A label that has never been fair or made sense. To say “My kids aren’t black, they’re mixed!” is actually putting stock in the value of race labels; it’s like contriving a new thing that supposedly makes more sense than “black”, when it doesn’t at all.
I’d like to see the day when we don’t even bother trying to figure out what race everybody is, because it’s understood that we are all the same.
[quote]
The world can call them whatever the hell they want. No one can stop that. But you nor anyone else can tell my sister that she shouldn’t call her kids “mixed.”
[quote]
No one is saying she can’t call them mixed, so relax a bit please. She can call them kool-aid for all it’s worth to me.
This is the point of contention, isn’t it? I maintain that “mixed” is no more an accurate description than “black” is. If anything, it is more inaccurate because the implication behind “mixed” is that “black” is a pure race. As if all the other so-called 100% black people, from Vanessa Williams to Venus Williams, are somehow different than people who have a black and white parent. There really is no good reason to make a distinction between a biracial kid and a black kid when it comes to race labeling. Perhaps it’s my own experience that leads me to feel this way.
My dad is black but could have been Mr. Kotter’s stunt-double back in the day. Neither of his parents are white; they are black people who (like all black people) are mixed nuts. My ex-boyfriend also is black and yet has got the whitest legs in Alabama. Neither of his parents are white; they are black people who (like all black people) are mixed nuts. Both my dad and my ex- probably have as much white blood as Boris Kodjoe, yet only Boris would qualify as “mixed”. It’s funny that Boris looks just as black as any negro I know, even though his parentage supposedly sets him apart from the rest of the black race.
I agree 100%, monstro. That’s why I feel in spite of all the attention we give to the black label it is actually the white one that is responsible for a lot of our problems. By saying I’m black, I’m saying I’m a whole bunch of things. Black is short-hand for African, European, and Native-American. For a white person, though, white would be more like a short-hand for what they are not.
