"Black" in America - or How do we define groups?

Great Debates
41

I like your Nigerian adoptee example. Let’s get away from what he is called and what he calls himself. How does he think about himself? How do various “mixed” individuals think of themselves? To what degree are his adoptive parents ethically obligated to provide with an opportunity to learn about and to identify with his Nigerian heritage? To help him identify with and learn about Black American heritage?

These are issues of personal relevance to me. My youngest child is adopted from China. She is Jewish by vitue of conversion and will be by way of religious upbringing and being raised in whatever aspects of Jewish culture are inherent in our household. (“White” culture is a nonissue to me, I don’t know what that would mean.) I do feel an obligation to provide opportunities for her to develop a positive Chinese identity and know that she will run into some of the very same problems that you describe in your hypothetical: she will be percieved as Chinese first and her Jewish identity will be questioned, yet she won’t fit in with Chinese culture no matter how much I try to give her exposure to it. These are the sorts of issues that I am trying to get at, in the general, from the specifics of Black/White.

42

I don’t think she’s trying to “change anything,” I simply think she prefers to call her kids “mixed” and will continue to do so.

He wants to call himself black, and his parents want to call him black. It’s up to him. If he were to self-identify himself as “mixed,” I’d find that to be perfectly accurate as well.

I’m sure if my sister were never asked to check the box which corresponds to which race her kids are, she’d prefer not to. But people want labels, and she’s gonna pick the one that she feels most closely identifies her kids. Even if others don’t share her opinions.

Agreed. Wouldn’t that be nice?

So what? “Black” isn’t a pure race, and neither is “mixed.” So my sister prefers to call her kids “mixed.”

Perhaps it is. “Mixed” seems to be a perfectly accurate label, even if some people don’t want to acknowledge it. “Mixed” implies that many different heritages are involved. If “black” does too, that’s fine.

This is all fine, that these people (presumably) self-identify themselves as black. But if they wanted to self-identify as “mixed,” they could, and should. It’s up to them. Won’t change how the rest of the world labels them, but this isn’t really about that. We know that people label and we know that people will think what they think.

All my sister has done is identify her kids in a way that she considers to be accurate. She doesn’t stomp her foot and get into a snit when someone thinks her kids are black. She can’t control that. But they can’t control her definition of her kids, either. As far as she’s concerned, her kids are mixed. 'Cause they are. End of story.

43

Another thing that just occurred to me: I had a coworker who looked mixed or black. She was constantly being mistaken for black. She self-identified as Greek, since she was born there and all the relatives she’s ever known are Greek. But, no doubt she had a “mixture” in her—even, possibly, “one drop” of African blood.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that she has one drop. Let’s say that she knows that she has some great, great, great grandmother who was from Africa. So why is she calling herself Greek? Why is she correcting people who call her black and telling them that she’s not black, she’s Greek? After all, “black” means “mixed,” and she’s that. And she looks black. So, politically, she must be black. Right?

44

I think we have seen more of a shift toward self identification as opposed to what people see on the outside. Using some celebrity examples:

Tiger Woods, Mariah Carey, and Vin Diesel are mixed African American people. I would hesitate to call any of them “black”. Tiger Woods, after he became very famous in the media as the first “African-American” golfer to win a Masters protested that label, saying that he didn’t view himself as “black” alone but multi-racial (“Cablinasian”).

I think some black people took that statement as an affront, and I am not sure how Tiger Woods is viewed. But fundamentally, if he says he’s mixed then who are we to tell him what he should be.

With Mariah Carey I think she has always maintained that she biracial, and grew up with a white single mother, so she feels less connection to being “black” - and I tend not to hear her referred to as “black”. Interestingly, I believe Halle Berry grew up in a similar situation and while she acknowledges being half white, identifies as "black, and is seen as such by African Americans. Is it soley because she is a little darker, or because she embraces the idea of being a “black actress”.

(Or is it because black people were reluctant to claim Mariah after Glitter!).

Vin Diesel is interesting because I believe he is half black and half Jewish or Italian, but keeps a somewhat mysterious image by not really ethnically affiliating himself, and he even plays “white” characters.

Anyway its a sensitive subject, I remember J-Lo getting into hot water a while back for singing the word “nigga’” in her song. Being Puerto Rican, she probably could claim some African-Ancestry or at least familial connection (though her mother is a very white looking woman), I think a lot of black people felt she overreached, even if she dates a black man, does hip-hop influenced music and dance, and is a “minority”, I don’t think she has ever really claimed to be black at all. If she had done so before, maybe no-one would have noticed her use of that word.

I am sure there are people, both black and white, who would say that since these three have stated African ancestry, they should be considered black, but I think the majority of people in the United States would accept that individuals have the right to define themselves, and we are a little more sophisticated about this issue than we were in say 1930, even if we have a long way to go.

45

Which characters has he played that are “white”? Has he portrayed any historical characters that we know were white? Did he portray some fictional characters who were identified as being white?

46

DSeid

I think it depends on how they are raised. The mixed individuals that I know (those who have a white parent) were raised appreciating both parents, but identified as black.

I know Jasmine Guy’s mother, a white woman. She raised her two “biracial” children as black people, and that’s how they identify themselves. But it doesn’t have to be that way.

I don’t think they’re under any obligation to introduce Nigerian heritage to the child. I think their only obligation is to raise their child to have no illusion about race and racism because these are the things the child will have to face first. A black child will need to learn lessons that a white child won’t, and these lessons need to be addressed. But issues over nationality and culture are minor IMHO.

But I do think it’s good to make a child more comfortable with the culture of their biological parents…if only so that child will have something to identify with in case they want to “find themselves”. If I was white and I was raising a black child, I would make sure the child had interactions with other black youngsters and see to it that they have people they can turn to as cultural resources. But I wouldn’t feel obligated to turn the romper room into the Shomberg Museum. :slight_smile:

yosemitebabe

If this woman truly looks “black”, then she would have had to sit in the back of the bus back in the day. It doesn’t matter if she claimed Greek, Spanish, Jewishness, Martian, Liliputian, or all of the above…she would have been “black” in the eyes of the law. Protests to the otherwise would have been ignored.

People have been denying “blackness” since Heck was a pup. I’m sure the mulatto chambermaid denied her “blackness” too, but that didn’t set her free. Nor did it mean she wasn’t black.

Your coworker is lucky that racism isn’t codified explicitly into law anymore. And I apologize for not understanding your point, yosemitebabe.

syncrolecyne

And yet Zoeller’s zinger was anti-black, not anti-Cablinasian (an irony not lost on many black people). Fair-skinned Mariah Carey may have the luxury of separating herself from “blackness”, but not Tiger Woods.

It also doesn’t matter how hard Tiger Woods (or his mother) insists that he isn’t “black”. The media consistently refers to him as a “black” golfer. Everyone views him as a “black” golfer. I’m betting Tiger understands the difference between personal and political identity quite well. I’m sure that understanding has been refined a lot since he has become famous.

47

That is beyond awful, but, thank goodness, we are no longer back in the day.

She looks like a woman who has black heritage. Her skin is not dark, but the combination of features and hair make people assume that she’s “mixed” or “black.” Even though, as far as I know, she’s got all Greek relatives. She’s probably “mixed” in the way that we’re all mixed, but she seems to have no knowledge of black relatives.

Which is beyond bizarre. This whole thing is beyond bizarre.

In my previous hypothetical, I asked what this girl should call herself if she knew that she had this one black great, great, great, great grandmother. And I’m guessing that you’re saying that she’d be black? Am I getting this right? Even though there’s no real connection to black people in her life or background, no black relatives she’s ever met, no nothing other than a lot of Greek relatives—she’s black, right? What about all her siblings, are they black too, even though they don’t look it? Or would it just be her?

I understand that you’re saying that this is how the world will see her, and I’m sure you’re right. What I want to know is if it is foolish or wrong for her to correct people when they assume that she’s black. Should she start checking off the box next to “black” when she is filling out a form?

Also, let’s go back and assume that she has no African great, great, great, grandmother. None. All Greek. Everyone’s Greek. Greek Greek Greek. But she looks black. How does that change things, now? I will concede that if she looked black back in the day, she’d be invited to the back of the bus. I believe this. But how would it play out now? She’s Greek Greek Greek. All Greek. But people assume she’s black. Should she correct them and tell them she’s Greek, or would that be foolish and pointless of her? Should she start to check the box next to “black” in forms, even though as far as she knows, she’s Greek Greek Greek? After all, the world views her as black, and apparently you are saying that none of her protestations will change that.

So what does she do?

48

Oh, I forgot to add, no problem and apology accepted, monstro. You and you with the face are always cool in my book.

49

Oh, I forgot to add, no problem and apology accepted, monstro. You and you with the face are always cool in my book.

50

Thanks, yosemitebabe!

I think it would be wise for her to acknowledge her black ancestry, if she has it. If she has one drop of blood and people can “see” it, she shouldn’t deny it. To deny it would be to be dishonest.

However, I can see the conundrum you’re presenting. I have a drop of Irish blood, but I could never claim to be Irish, even if people could somehow see my Irishness. I have nothing against the Irish tribe, but I don’t have any connection to them beyond genetics. So I don’t know what a person in that situation “should” do, except follow their heart and do what they wanna do.

Look at Bob Barr. I swear, that man looks black, and many people agree with me. The former congressman is known for getting very upset when people ask him if he’s black. Maybe the question touches a nerve, or maybe he’s just tired of it. At any rate, black people don’t need him. If he’s “passing”, then it’s no skin off anyone’s nose. It’s his own conscious he has to deal with if he isn’t being honest with himself.

51

I think you have a point. But (there’s always a “but”), what if she’s sure that her African great, great, great, great grandmother has nothing to do with her appearance? What if she looks just like a Greek uncle on the side of the family that doesn’t have the African great, great, great, great grandmother? This girl knows that she looks the way she does because of her Greek uncle.

Why should she identify with a great, great, great, great grandmother that she bears no resemblance to?

Or, to put it another way: (this is kind of obscure, but bear with me). My sisters and I are all artistic. My mom, back in her day, loved to draw. Her drawing influenced me when I was a kid and my artwork looks similar to some of her drawings. I am very much convinced that most of the artistic “talent” that I have is from my mom’s side of the family. However, my great grandmother on my dad’s side also was an artist. She did kinda mediocre landscapes. I don’t do many landscapes. I don’t relate at all to the kind of work my great grandmother did. And yet my dad always liked to claim that my “talent” came from his side of the family. (Not that he negated my mom’s side of the family; he was just proud, is all.) But I’ve never seen it that way. It’s possible that some of this intangible thing called “talent” did come from great great grandma, but all the evidence points to mom. And so when people ask me where I got my “talent” from, I usually say my mom.

Yeah. That’s all anyone can do, I guess.

:chuckle: I had never noticed that about him. How funny!

52

I agree with pretty much everything Monstro’s posted. Here are some people who beg to differ:

http://www.interracialvoice.com/

53

I think a lot of difference in opinion between mostro and YB has to with the fact that m lives on the east coast and y lives in CA. Having grown up on the east coast, but lived most of my adult life in CA, I can attest to the different culture wrt race and especially wrt biracial people. In CA, you run into biracial people all the time. And given the fact that blacks make up a much smaller % of the CA population than most eastern states, biracial (black/white) kids are probably more likely to grow up with equal exposure to both sides of their families.

Since we’re throwing around anecdotes, my social groups contains quite a few biracial people. Other then the occasional “Oh, you’re part such-and-such”, it’s just no big deal. And I’m talking about adults in their 30s and 40s. For teenagers, it’s just a normal part of everyday life. In fact, the “biracial look” seems to be in vogue these days. Check out the cover article in last Suanday’s NYT Style section. (Getting the Sunday NYT delivered is one of the few tell-tale signs of my east coast past.:))

54

How do you define White or black? Well… look at the Words: They are colors, Describing the skin color of a person. If you wish to define people as “white or black” then…use the definition of the adjective youre using to define.

**warning,tasteless joke below this line!
I.e. “That cracker is so white ,powder bought him a pass to a tanning salon for christmas!” Or “Dats niggas so black,he went to night school and they marked him absent”.