Cecil,
I feel you are misinformed as to the orogins of the “Black Irish” as i am one of them…
Me and one of my brothers look so Spanish it,s not funny.
Our parents were from the West of Ireland, " Connermara" to be precise and it is well known in those parts sailors from the defeated Spanish Armada settled around the area and lived amongst the community,
Over a period of time " Throwbacks" as we have been called at times have been born with looks and features of Spanish people!!!
While “Black Irish” may refer to Spaniards in Ireland, in the Southeastern USA, the terms “Black Irish” and “Black Dutch” were terms used by the Cherokee Indians, who for whatever reasons escaped the death march we now know as The Trail of Tears. My great-great grandfather was Cherokee and told everyone that he was “Black Irish”. I have heard both these terms all my life (53 years) and that’s what was referred to.
In general, however, the term Black Irish has a specific meaning and is not related to people of Amerind descent trying to avoid persecution, although it, along with Black Dutch or Black German, has been appropriated for that purpose at times.
I am a Black Irish, and have found some of the mixup is in the Irish part, we are Scots-Irish so I guess the term should be Black Scots-Irish, don’t know been trying to find out more. My aunt did the back ground work we were call Durham in spain before the 11 century then we were the Donham in the low-lands from then on we came to this country in the 1600 and moved west in to Indiana. The low-landers were called Scots-Irish. This is the way I heard it and I can prove where my family has been. So it’s of no wonder the Irish don’t know of us.
My father’s side of the family is Manning, Irish from MA, and I have always referred to my uncle as “black Irish” because of his darker skin but I found myself looking up the definition tonight because my father compained today about how the film “The Departed” portrays Irish people from MA (the mob) and at the same time tonight a new show debuted on NBC called, “Black Donnellys” about Irish gansters.
A new meaning for the phrase, perhaps? Everything else I have looked at refers to Spain, Dutch, other origins, Melungeons, and just coloring.
All I know, is that I am a former dancer and often wonder if I have any of these other nationalities in my blood as I am personally very white in an Irish sort of way???
Why is it so hard to accept the relatively simple concept expoused by Unca Cece that there were plenty of people in Ireland prior to the Armada, etc., who had dark hair and such? I think it is only in America where we would cling to the notion that all Irish people look like Maureen O’Hara.
I do accept that concept. And some studies suggest just that. But, why am I such a good dancer?? It is interesting to note that the terminology has been borrowed by persons living in areas near Texas, Kentucy and in that region who are actually Melungeons and are definately mixed in breed. And that some of these people also called themselves “Cherokee” as well. But where does NBC come from with the show entitled “Black Donnellys” referring to their ganster lifestyle. Obviously they must be aware that there could be some double meaning taken in the terminology.
I’m so glad you included a winky smiley in your second post because I was about to go off on your first post. (What I would have said: In the first place, I don’t believe dancing ability is genetic, in the second place the Irish have a long tradition of dance if I’m not mistaken).
I’m kind of baffled about why people assume that Irish people can’t have dark skin or hair. Where do they get their idea about what an Irish person looks like?
I am glad you didn’t “go off” on my message because I am actually English, Irish, Scottish, French and German and Swiss. In other words, I am an American. My real question for anyone who has a resonse is, is it possible that the term “black Irish” was originated not about color at all but due to the Irish Mafia as in “the Departed” and NBC’s “Black Donnelleys”? Does anyone know what year the term originated in and if it originated in America?
My great-grandparents immigrated from Ireland and somehow or another ended up in Texas. Neither of them were particularly dark complected but I’ve been told all my life we were “Black Irish” I know it has nothing to do with gangsters as my great grandfather came from a long line of ministers. Our last name is Rozell (Rozelle, Rosel, Roselle) etc.
There are still Rozell’s living in Ireland. When one of my dad’s cousins was working on our genealogy she found a Rozell Castle in Italy. There is some documentation that they migrated to Ireland and settled down. They married into the “fair” Irish and we have both complections in our family.
It is interesting to note that the terminology has been borrowed by persons living in areas near Texas, Kentucy and in that region who are actually Melungeons and are definately mixed in breed. And that some of these people also called themselves “Cherokee” as well. But where does NBC come from with the show entitled “Black Donnellys” referring to their ganster lifestyle. Obviously they must be aware that there could be some double meaning taken in the terminology.
