Black or African-American?

As a general rule, I just call people “black” unless I know that they either come from Africa or have been to Africa. Some people have probably 8% African heritage and would still be considered “African American.”

Also, yes, it would normally be better not to classify people based on skin color, but it does come in handy to call people “black,” in a non-demeaning way. For example:

Person A: “I’m going to a movie with AJ later, do you want to come along?”
Person B: “Who’s AJ?”
Person A: “He’s the black guy, I was with him earlier.”
Person B: “Oh him.”

If you ignored all racial issues, Person A would’ve really had to beat around the bush. And eventually when Person B finally did figure out who the Person A was talking about, he/she (;)) would probably just say “Oh, the black guy.” It’s not worth it. Just call 'em “black.”

I have yet to find anyone offended by that kind of use of the word “black.” In fact, if I were black, I’d probably me more offended by someone calling me African-American; it’s kind of jumping to conclusions for someone to make an assumption about someone’s nationality based on their skin color.

On a somewhat unrelated note, just today I heard my mom say “Mmmm, African American Cherry Soda” after pouring a black cherry soda. You have to be careful nowadays. :wink: I also often substitute “black” in other situations with “African American” just to show how stupid it is to always call black people “African American.”

If he goes around expecting to be called an Irish-American as his race, then I would criticize it all the same. From my perspective, you are confusing being proud/interested/whatever in your heritage with wanting to be called a specific hyphenated word for your race.

I have Irish heritage - so, I would like to see Ireland at some point and trace my roots. Heck, I have my family’s coat of arms as well ready to be hung in my bar when I finally buy a house and put one in. By the same token, I have no problem with a black person expressing pride in being of African descent - wearing traditional clothes - etc. This is not the same as expecting your race to be based upon your heritage.

Speaking only for myself - first, I’m a person - second, I’m American - third, I’m white - and fourth, I have heritages which interest me. My heritage and my nationality are not my race.

I’ve noticed something else in my education textbooks (all copyright 1999-2000): the authors use “Black” to describe a person of color. Such as: “As a teacher, you must understand in this situation that the Black child…”

I read it again, and then had a thought - capitalizing “black” recalls to mind the use of “Negro” (capitalized) in the '50s. Anyone else running across this in textbooks, or have a thought on this particular instance? Or is there an authorial revolution in textbooks that I missed somewhere?

Maybe Serlin’s writing them :wink:

How about Black Frogadopoulos :smiley:

yojimbo: Phil Lynott shall henceforth be remembered as the Pigment Paddy :wink:

Black Frogadopoulos LMAO :smiley:

You Dutch you’re just too PC that’s you’re problem, lighten up man :wink:

Actually, APA guidelines state that the term African American should NOT be hyphenated. This is another “battle” I’ve had to fight with the person who insisted on referring to “my folk” as Caucasian-American.

I’ll quote a bit here, but hopefully not enough to get the copyright police on me.

“Preferences for nouns referring to racial and ethnic groups change ovten. One reason for this is simply personal preference…Another reason is that over time, designations can become dated and somewhat negative…For example, some people of African ancestry prefer Black and others prefer African American.” Yadda…Yadda…Yadda.

It continues, “Do not use hyphens in multiword names, even if the names act as unit modifiers )e.g., Asian American participants).”

Finally, “American Indian and Native American are both accepted terms for referring to indigenous peoples fo North America, although Native American is a broader designation because the U.S. government includes Hawaiians and Samoans in this category.”

(all this comes from Publication Manual fo the American Psychological Association, 4th edition1994, p.52.)

FYI, that citation above is not in APA format :slight_smile:
All italics are original, all misspellings are mine.

One day, I’ll post the SEDCAR standard definitions for race. It’ll make SOME people’s blood boil.

I suppose this topic is better than another debate on the validity of “nigga” versus “nigger” in terms of self-descriptive invective and degrees of self-hate. But I digress.

The thing about the various terms used to describe native-born Americans of African descent is that they have always been mutable and, I suspect, always will be. The term is more accurately an ethnic designation, not a racial one, as Lamia pointed out.

In the States, lower-case “slave” and abusive “nigger” led to “coloreds” to “Colored”; to “negro”, to “Negro”; to “black” to “Black”; to “Afro-American” to “African-American”, and the wishy-washy all-inclusive “People of color” with a few descriptive terms of racial purity like “octaroon”, “quadroon” and “mulatto” thrown in. (And the so-called genteel “nigras”, if you really want to split hairs. That one damn near started a riot after the Orangeburg Massacre.)

If you’re around 30 like I am, look forward to seeing at least two more shifts in the paradigm in our lifetime – the next one in about 10 years, if history is any indication. Personally, I’m voting “Cosbyites”.

“Black” (capital ‘B’, please, when talking of entire groups and if you’re writing for EBONY, lower case in individual descriptions) is a short, quick, non-offensive descriptive ethnic term that’s fine to be used informally in 90% of most situations – unless you’re around a hypersensitive Afrocentric who insists on African-American all the time. Me, I stick to ‘African-American’ for written coorespondence and formal speeches.

‘African-American’ is not wrong or stupid. It is, at worst, imprecise, but the Africa is there as a reminder of our ancestry. You may be offended by it for the implicit division of the hyphen, but guess what? That’s your hang-up. If that’s what a people want to call themselves, then it’s good manners to call them by their preferred name. Telling a group of people why (you, an irrelevant non-participant, thinks) it’s dumb, wrong or stupid to call themselves something they prefer to to be called is rude at least and presumptively bigoted at best. Smacks of that old ‘white man’s burden’ thing Kipling talked about.

This thing works both ways, incidentally. The old ‘if you look black, you must BE black’ thing that haunts Eldrick ‘Tiger’ Woods. (Try this on: Father is half African American, one-quarter American Indian and one-quarter Chinese. Mother is half Thai, one-quarter Chinese and one-quarter white.) With THAT kind of immediate ethnic heritage, it’s no wonder he calls himself ‘Cablinasian’. Even Colin Powell agrees black is a handy shorthand to describe him, but I’m reasonably sure Tiger wouldn’t appreciate it.

Look at my carefully selected, African birthname and know I prefer “African-American” over that bland “Person of color” crap ANY day. But describe me as black, if it gives you something to compromise on.


Vector: Nah, I ain’t offended.

Carina42: “Beige?”

spooje: Tell me, if the choices were “African-American” and “Coon”, which would you use?

spritle: They didn’t laugh? Hell, I laughed.

With regard to the hyphen itself, APA is just one academic style manual among many others, including the AP, UPI, New York Times, MLA and Strunk & White – most of which do advocate the use of hyphens.

Mjollnir: C’mere and say that.

super_head: I read your opinions and respectfully disagree, simply because the ‘African’ in African-American is not designated as anything but a symbolic regional point of origin, fancy hyphen included. It’s not really a racial designation, although many people (including many Blacks) think it is. It’s an ethnic one. Otherwise we WOULD call Jamacians, South Africans, Nigerian-born-transplants, etc. ‘African-Americans’. But they aren’t and we don’t.

I do agree that heritage and race aren’t the same - because race itself is a deep-rooted fallacy - but we’re a minority(!) opinion there.

Green Bean: If an Edisto or Cherokee tells me they prefer Indian, THEN I’ll say Indian. In the circles I travel, ‘Native American’ or a tribal designation is preferred. I’ve used ‘Native American’ since the heyday of AIM in the 1970s: I equate that with the still-in-use ‘Colored’ in NAACP.

Quadzilla: Many education textbooks editions are routinely updated for content in pedagogy, discipline or technology changes, but neglect PC concerns. Frankly, I’m shocked they capitalized ‘black.’ You sure Black isn’t the kid’s surname?

KJ: I seriously doubt if you’d be ‘offended’ if you looked black and people mistakenly jumped to that conclusion. Weary, sure… but you use too many smilies to strike me as being that thin-skinned. :slight_smile: If you have a foreign accent, the minute you spoke you’d correct that misconception, no? If not, you could always go the Tiger Route and call yourself ‘Cablinasian’.

Space Vampire: I confess, I have always been amazed by the number of people who say ‘Black South Africans’ without realizing that, in a country with a populance less than 13% white, just how redundant that sounds.

Coldfire: You’re a silly. But yojimbo is worse for encouraging you.

I wish it was as simple to describe someone as “black” as it is to say “red-headed” or “tall” or “left-handed” - as an adjective rather than a political statement. Why can I comfortably describe one coworker as “the tall skinny guy” while hesitating to describe the other as “the bald black guy” as if it was judgemental? I blame those who turn everything into a PC issue.

[hijack]
When my daughter was in kindergarten, she came home and declared: “I don’t like Kenny!” I knew he was the only black kid in her class and I immediately wondered what she was learning from her other classmates. I asked her to explain and she told me that Kenny was a “kissy boy” who liked to chase all the girls and kiss them on the playground. I was relieved that she disliked him based on what he did and not because of who he was. Having an Archie Bunker clone for a grandfather and only slightly more tolerant parents, I’ve struggled to avoid stereotyping and I’ve made every effort to educate my daughter about prejudices. It shouldn’t be this difficult, should it?
[/hijack]

>> “Black” (capital ‘B’, please, when talking of entire groups and if you’re writing for EBONY, lower case in individual descriptions) <<

Just a little observation here. Capitalizing “Black” seems perfectly appropriate, though I don’t tend to do so. But it seems that the only times I see “White” capitalized is in white racist literature, otherwise it’s lower case. I would never capitalize “white”.

I use the term “beige” in jest. I’m of Scottish/German ancestry, so that does make me “white.” But in the summer when I’m tan, I’m way darker than my neighbor Sharon - we’ve compared arms. :slight_smile:

Carina42: They capitalize “White” in contrast to “Black” in all of Johnson Publications, like EBONY and JET. I’m not suggesting they’re racist periodicals mind, but dammit, there’s something screwy about a mag that’ll give BIG MOMMA’S HOUSE the big thumbs up just 'cuz Martin Lawrence cashed a paycheck.

FairyChatMom: if the bald black guy and his black office buddies get offended by the non-perjorative “black” in this context, they’re all being too thin-skinned and you have a point. If anybody else in the office is getting offended on their behalf, they’re being delusional. Yeesh. Is still that PC out there? I look forward to the inevitable verbal backlash that will filter pop culture in the next ten years with relish.

The problem I have with hypersensitive PC-ness is that in my experience it introduces racial concerns where there often ain’t none – or superficial ones at best. I once worked in a department where I was the only black person there, right? Most of my customers were white. One woman, a regular customer, commented that she came looking for me one day and, not remembering my name, asked, “Where’s the black guy?” Apparently she felt really bad about it. I asked told her it was okay, no biggie, hell, I was the only black guy there. She was appalled. No, no, no, no – what she did was terrible, inexcusable, how dare she mention something as obvious as my race when I had so many other fine qualities, blah blah blah… I should be offended, blah blah blah…

Now, I put up with a lot from my customers – from people in general, really – but I honestly don’t like it when people tell me what should or should not offend me because of my ethnic background. So I broke it down for her.

“Let’s be honest. If I’m not offended and you’re describing me, why should you be? I’m a grown man. I know what I don’t like to be called. The most distinctive things about me are my appearance and disposition. Now you could’ve asked for the “fat guy”. You could’ve asked for the “funny guy”. You could’ve asked for “the Southern guy”. But other people fit those descriptions. Your best alternatives were imprecise, so why even THINK about saying ‘black’ like there’s a problem? It’s obvious, short and immediate.”

She walked off rather miffed at me, I think. I should told her to give some loose change to the homeless brother down the block… make her feel better. But THEN again, she mighta thought we all know each other.

Anybody notice I went through all that without resorting to using ‘African-American’? I get to do that `cuz I am one.

>>The problem I have with hypersensitive PC-ness is that in my experience it introduces racial concerns where there often ain’t none – or superficial ones at best.<<

Precisely! It can make us more aware of our differences, ignoring the fact that we’re all on the planet together. Sort of contradictory, I think. And, since I rarely read Ebony or Jet, I’ll defer to your knowlege here, Mr. Hale! I certainly didn’t intend to imply they’re racist publications, as I’m sure you realized.
//slight hijack// I don’t know that this is a parallel exactly, but I have for most of my working life been female in traditionally guy jobs. I was in the Navy Reserves, (post-Tailhook), and the only woman in a SeaBee construction unit of about 90 men. And it used to REALLY irritate me when I knew that the guys were being overly careful around me for fear of insulting my delicate little female psyche. Especially when the CO would make announcements about being careful with jokes & “offensive” language now that we had a female in our midst. Or if I was given “easier” jobs because of my gender. I always found that insulting and made a point of trying to do more, better, heavier, and faster than my male counterparts just to prove a point. Luckily, that wasn’t too difficult. :smiley:

Hey, you said yourself how much you don’t like Orangeburg (althought the Edisto Gardens aren’t too bad). Why don’t you come here sometime. I’m only 45 minutes or so up I-26.

I find it funny how American PC-ism is spreading here to Prague…A friend (Czech) of mine was talking about someone I knew at a bar and referred to him as that “African-American.” Throughout the beginning of the convesation I thought I knew who she was talking about, then I got confused, and she did too, and it went downhill for a minute. I then looked at her and said “He’s from Ghana.” And she said “Yes! Him! Like I said, your African-American friend.” To which I started laughing and said “No, not American. Black. He is FROM Ghana. He lives here temporarily (Prague). He is by no means an African-American, he is an African-African if you want to put it that way!”

Silly white folk thinking that the words you choose are more important than the meanings behind them.

One of the best essays I’ve read compared being Politically Correct to McCarthy-ism and being ‘Politically American’ 50 years ago. McCarthy set out to control the thoughts and minds of the media, entertainment and educational industries by forcing people to speak and think certain ways, or else be condemned or even thrown in jail for treason. It’s getting close to that now. PC-ism needs to die.

Take care-
-Tcat

What do you call an Aborigine who has American Citizenship?

Or someone from Melanesia?

Or where do laplanders fall in?

Are berbers white, caucasian, or African?

Just being rhetorical:)

Askia - “Black” was not the child’s surname; the book also uses “White” children as a label.

If it is used this way, then as was pointed out earlier, Dave Matthews should happily check African-American on forms he completes, correct? While technically correct, I would venture that he would be told to mark the box labeled “white” or “caucasian.”

Hmmm… perhaps in their native land, we wouldn’t… but I have a feeling if they were living in the US they would quickly be labeled as such. While the denotation is one of ancestral origin, the common usage is race-based.

Also, I agree that race is generally nonsense. Here’s a solution - since life seems to have originated in Africa, let’s all just label ourselves African-American and be done with it. :slight_smile:

Well that begs the question what was the original colour of homo sapiens in Africa? I suspect the other great apes are white under their fur, but I’ve never been up close to them.:slight_smile:

Askia: I guess you are right. At worst, it is inaccurate and if someone wishes to be referred to as such, then so be it. I just don’t want to be offensive when my intentions are forced to include such descriptors.
It seems that a handful of people here don’t mind being described as black if the distinction is necessary.
I live my life as a Jew, hold myself out as a Jew, claim my ancient ancestry as Jewish - so I guess I ain’t white. But you would never know that to look at me.