Especially in casinos. Experiences, if you have them, please.
Usually such activity will get you banned from casinos, no?
Zev Steinhardt
so many cards, so many cards…can’t count quickly enough…—long pause— “Dammit, Mike, I’ve gone cross-eyed again”
I can’t do it myself, but it really stinks when you play cards with someone who can, IMO. I thank the deity of choice that it was merely a friendly game of Uno when I ran into a card-counter!
I’m fairly certain it’s not illegal. But doing so (and getting found out) will probably at best get you tossed from a place.
I tried to learn it. In theory, it’s pretty simple, but in practice, it’s harder than hell. I didn’t have much luck when I tried it at a real casino; those dealers scoop up the cards before you even get a chance to count them. And the single or 2-deck games that supposedly offer the best advantage for the card-counter are generally played face-down, so you’re lucky if you even get to see all the cards. From what I’ve read, those who successfully do it at casinos go to great effort and put in tons of practice time. In my opinion, not worth it. All casinos now shuffle before the deck(s) are dealt all the way out, so even if you are an expert card-counter, your advantage will still be small. But if you’re interested, there’s actually quite a bit of information available for free on the web; it just takes a little searching.
Oh, yeah - by the way, card-counting is not illegal; it has survived court challenges. BUT, a casino can ban you if they suspect you are doing it.
My Uncle counts cards with some sort of modified strategy that appears to work well for him. I don’t know how he does it, but over his gambling career he is up by more than twenty thousand dollars.
He told me that a lot of casinos are moving to larger stacks (stack is the total amount of cards from several decks. 3 deck stack, 6 deck stack, etc.) This, he says, has made card counting impossible at some casinos he used to frequent.
Also, apparently the casinos have developed a way to wash the cards differently so that the distribution is much more random with a new deck. Dunno if he’s right, but the man’s been gambling longer than I’ve been alive, so if anyone knows it’s him.
The best that I’ve ever gotten from it is that you have to have a good mind for calcualting and retaining numbers, and that it’s difficult. The main thing is to assimilate the numbers in a very short period of time, because the hands move fast. He tried to teach me one, but damned if I ever made any money.
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- A couple years ago in St. Louis, a guy got thrown off one of the casinos for counting cards. He took the casino to court for discrimination (or something-?) but the case was dismissed. Counting cards with just yer noggin isn’t illegal, but neither is the casino asking you to leave for any number of reasons, including that you’re winning too often. ~ Anybody can get lucky once or twice, but it’s the people who consistently win that they watch for, and boot.
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- A couple years ago in St. Louis, a guy got thrown off one of the casinos for counting cards. He took the casino to court for discrimination (or something-?) but the case was dismissed. Counting cards with just yer noggin isn’t illegal, but neither is the casino asking you to leave for any number of reasons, including that you’re winning too often. ~ Anybody can get lucky once or twice, but it’s the people who consistently win that they watch for, and boot.
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Here is an article about a card counting team from M.I.T. It’s a very interesting story.
Thanks for the article. I can’t remember who is doing it, but that story was recently optioned and is being made into a film.
The casinos love people who try to count cards and fail, which is most of us. I’ve tried to do ratios, which is a little easier than counting, but in addition to not being quick enough, it also sucks all the fun out of playing, and for a 1% advantage, I’ll pass.
With small stacks–maximum of two decks–I’ve done it. I paid the rent a few times in college that way; I’d guess I’m up about 4 or 5 grand, lifetime. It never seemed much of an extra effort to me, but I’ve got a knack for tracking that kind of thing.
The places I played (Louisiana gambling boats, mostly) didn’t mind too much as long as I didn’t win excessive amounts. I had a nice chat with a couple of the off-duty dealers, and they said the pit boss considered it good advertising to have a guy steadily winning at one of the tables, as long as he didn’t win too much. Whenever the pit boss started giving me dirty looks, I knew it was time to bail for a while.
My friends and I play a game called egyptian butt fuck, My sister and I can count the cards in the game, which definatly makes it easier to play, I have never thought about counting the cards in blackjack however, will have to give it a try
I count. I haven’t been able to quit my day job.
Seriously, it gives you a minuscule edge, instead of a minuscule disadvantage (assuming your strategy is otherwise perfect). Playing with or without counting, though, is susceptible to normal variations. You can get wiped out counting; you can make a stack o’ cash by doing something stupid, like never hitting a stiff hand (which is why you get so many people sitting down next to you with bogus “systems” they claim work all the time.)
Counting is legal–but it’s also legal for a casino to refuse to deal to someone for whatever reason they like. The best way to not get caught is to not have wild fluctuations in the amount you bet.
The latest nasty countermeasure by the casinos: drop 4 decks of cards into a perpetual shuffling machine’s hopper–it spits out 52 of them. Dealer runs through the deck; drops it back into the hopper, which spits out another 52. Since the whole rationale behind counting is to keep track of the ratio between low cards and high cards remaining in the deck, this totally throws that out the window.
Casino’s don’t mind counters one bit. Some have placards which state, “No card counters allowed”, which is only a tease, IMO, while other owners encourage counters, because they know most of them only think they know what they are doing. I was very heavy into BlackJack and card counting that started back in the early eighties after I seen Ken Uston on “60 Minutes“. I thought this was the game for me after I seen that. I read about seven or eight of the most popular books on the subject, and a few others that weren’t so good. I was quite good at it, very disciplined and was very efficient and accurate card counter, and I never played hunches. 5/6 trips to Las Vegas I came back a winner, although the amount was very small. The time I lost, I must have stayed on the tables some 20-30 hours, and managed to lose close to $400.00. My maximum bet was never more than $25.00 unless I doubled down or split pairs. Again, I wasn’t a big player, and was only exploring the possibilities at the time. By just playing quarter hands at work I managed to win over $800 dollars on lunch break, but that was four years of 15 minute lunch breaks! I renewed my interest on and off throughout the nineties, but I honestly think it’s almost next to impossible to win consistently at it these days in most of the Las Vegas casino‘s I‘ve been in. Maybe other cities or countries have better odds. One would have to research each and everyone of the casino’s and dealers to determine whether or not the game might even be worth pursuing. And if one is serious about big money, one really needs to organize a team to even make a go at it. After you know the casino’s exact rules, you run it through the charts to find out whether or not the game is worthwhile to play or not. It’s also very important to know which dealer and casino’s are dealing further into the shoe. Multiple decks make it difficult to win, and that is the norm these days. This drops the percentage quite a bit, although one could still win from these decks if they dealt well into the shoe. Dealers hitting soft 17 take away a couple of tenths of a percent; not being allowed to double down on soft hands or other hands also takes away more. Even single decks are virtually impossible to win too, due to the dealer shuffling up on you, sometimes only after a couple of hands or even one hand dealt with you being the only player there! The whole strategy of card counting is keeping up with the high and low cards, and knowing how many are still left in the deck. When the deck contains more ten cards than not, the advantage swings very far into the players favor due to the fact the dealer has to hit on 16 or less, when the player can often sit, and then let the dealer bust. It‘s been about ten years since I was last in a Las Vegas casino, but even when I was going, they was using multiple decks, and the dealers were only going about two-thirds to three-fourths into the deck, which certainly takes away virtually all of the benefits of card counting. The amount of percentage this swings it back into the casino’s favor is significant. Again, one has to research many casino’s and individual dealers to determine how far they are going into the deck. This takes a lot of time and homework. Once you find a dealer to your liking, one can only hope the next dealer will go far into the shoe too. I think the thing that finally caused me to lose interest in the game, was when my brother did a simulation of 100,000 hands. The software was set up to where you could punch in what rules the casino allowed, and also at what point the dealer shuffled up the cards. I don’t remember the exact results, but I do know that even with the computer playing perfect basic strategy, and the computer doing the correct card counting, it still showed us to have a negative loss. The best books on the subject at the time were Julian Braun’s “How to play Winning Blackjack” and the late Ken Uston’s “Million Dollar Blackjack”. The former book, has excellent charts, and runs billions of hands through a computer. However, be aware of when the book starts talking about money management. I later found out through a web cite many years ago, that Braun did not write certain parts, and that the publisher added the non-sense that no mathematician like Braun would have ever done, but it was pretty much out of his control. Uston’s uses a more complex card counting method. I learned it too, but never used it in the casino’s and later went back to Braun’s more simpler revised count. I seriously don’t think Uston’s method is worth the extra effort although one might gain possibly a tenth or two of one percent with his method. Uston’s book covers quite a bit and is comprehensive, and I think a must read for any serious player. Perhaps you’ve seen him on 60 Minutes. Although the copyright on this particular book is 1981, I think you‘ll learn a great deal from it. Other techniques at winning at BlackJack or explored too, not just card-counting. There is “front-loading“ and “Spooking“. Front loading is when a dealer exposes his hole card to the player as he is pulling it out of the deck, prior to sliding it under his up-card. Spooking is when the player has his accomplice read the dealer’s card from the back, and then with certain signals relays back to the player what the hold card is. Any time the dealer has a 10 card or ace showing on his up-card, he has to check to see if he has BlackJack, which happens about 1/3 of the time. This is valuable information when the player knows his hole card! If you can still find a dealer that holds his deck instead of dealing it out of a shoe, this too is worth exploring, although most casino‘s are the wiser now, and use only shoes. My brother who lived in Las Vegas at the time I was spending quite a bit of time there later told me the casino’s went over to a new method to where the dealer no longer checks his hole card any more. The best game nowadays is probably going to be in places other than the casino. On just about any Friday or Saturday night, you can find a good game somewhere in somebody’s home or possibly a bar. Some bars I go in offer up BlackJack, although it’s illegal in my home state, so you take your own risk of not getting paid if you win too big.
John
I’m curious if anyone has tried playing internet BlackJack yet? 60 Minutes said this wsex.com cite is legit. Also if anyone knows of the latest best software for BlackJack, I’d like to get their recommendations on that too on what is good or not. I want something that will allow me to set the parameters for all of the rule variations, as well as allow me to do simulations and control how far the dealer deals down into the deck.
John
IMHO you really have to have a special innate knack to be able to count cards at a casino. As others have indicated, most prospective card counters are not quick enough to keep up. And as John indicates above, if the dealer reshuffles the cards frequently, the card counter’s advantage flies out the window.
If you can count cards and get lucky with a “rich” deck (heavy on face cards and tens) you can win a lot of money. Two big if’s.
I don’t imagine that throwing people out of a casino for winning too much is good for business, so you may not get thrown out as long as you’re not winning too much. Regardless of whether you’re counting cards and playing a perfect strategy, the odds do not always favor you and oftentimes it’s by a fraction of a percent. More than likely you’re going to have to play a lot of hands to make any money if you’re playing small stakes.
One well-known strategy that won’t win you any money but will keep you at the tables all night: bring a ton of cash. Double your bet every time you lose. If you’re playing small stakes and bring enough cash, eventually you’ll win a hand and all your money back and start over. At a $10 table, you would need a $1,300 bankroll. To get knocked out of the game, you would have to lose eight hands in a row, 255 to 1 odds against if you’re a good player. Increase your bankroll to $5200 (yeah, I know) and the odds improve to 1011 to 1 against a knockout. Course, you probably won’t make any money playing this strategy–it’s just about survival.
John Zahn, You 'da man.
I tried internet blackjack. It works fine, except I had to sign up for PayPal, since my credit card company doesn’t allow internet gambling. I’m up about 40 dollars just from playing $1 a hand. Of course, I haven’t collected my winnings yet - supposedly they make it difficult to cash out, and might charge a fee to get your winnings.
I count, more as a hobby than anything, since I don’t play blackjack often enough anymore for that slight shift in the advantage to make a difference. (I probably more than negate my advantage in dealer tokes.)
I, too, have been told that most places generally don’t care about small-time non-obvious counters, although I was asked to leave the Barbary Coast once. (Not that that means anything; I’ve heard of them kicking people out who were betting flat.)
It is hard, but not impossible, to count into a 6- or 8-deck shoe, if the penetration is good. (Penetration=percentage of the cards they actually deal out before they shuffle.)
Dr. J